IDF phasing out Tavor and M4, in favor of locally made AR15 platform

For a twenty inch barrel, a bullpup makes eminent sense. Since everyone has gone to 14-16 inch barrels the savings are not as great. The short barrels might be simply catering to the immediate situation that they appear to face. Given a battlefield with any open areas, they might change their opinion.

All of those weight savings one gets from an AR are quickly spent once you insist on a traditional layout in order to fit your cigarette lighter and garage door opener on as accessories.

I think this is a cost saving over the TAvor platform for one thing, but most like just giving a consistent training standard of arms over all services and for a few decades. Should they occasionally get offered a cheap source of AR again from the US, they can take them too without much of a change in drills.
 
greentips said:
the COM of bullpup is behind the pistol grip at the back, the gun tends to level naturally if it is tugged in under arm pit.
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Bullpup is way easier to handle one-handed and still be ready for immediate action. A full length AR/M16/C7 or a carbine weighed down with forward accessories becomes a real pain to carry one handed .... because soldiers never need a free hand to pull/carry/hold anything in the field.




greentips said:
The cons come in when is is calling for either gun up or gun down where they are people around. It is not as nice to drive the gun from gun up to firing positing - it is like pulling a hammer up by the handle. I guess people can say do "gun down", hey, this is an institution thing sometimes you just follow and dont argue.
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Not certain I understand what you are getting at here. I had to go play with an X95 and an AR side by side to see how bringing the rifle up to the shoulder differed. I find the AR tends to overshoot the target when brought up quickly, which makes sense as there is more weight further forward. From the low ready, the X95 has most of its weight just under my should and so comes up quite nicely.


greentips said:
I give mag change some more thoughts here because I used to run X95 and I developed some mag change drills for it. It is quite fast but it will NOT not be allowed in most canadian gun range and a lot of t old school military ranges. it is quite easy and fast to roll the butt up on the shoulder to have the mag at eye level for a mag change. It is the same concept as bringing the mag well to eye level with AR for a mag change. But the problem of doing this is of course, it raises the gun sky high, so it is not exactly a good thing in confined space .

The school of thought is to bring the work to eye level instead of lower head to look at work - so it is not so much of the speed of doing things but it is about not making the user to look down to do things. With a bullpup it draws the user not only to look down but to look back if the user doesn't follow the "don't move head principle", but it is a bit unavoidable in a prone position.
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I'm a lefty, so AR mag changes always require my right hand to make a quick stop at the mag release button. Then bring the fresh mag into place. This requires me to bring the rifle out of my shoulder and look down. The X95 is better because of its dual side mag release. I find the X95 rolls back into my shoulder more easily than the AR.

I haven't tried it, because I'm a civilian now, but I can see how prone mag changes would be considerably more clumsy with a bullpup because the mag well is right under your chin.
 
zupermann said:
IDF goes from American aid M16 variants to Galil, then sort of goes back to M16/M4, then goes to Tavor, now goes to AR again.
Somebody needs to make up their minds :)
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Keeps people working... LoL

That said: I think it is clear: more and more militaries are equipping themselves with AR/M4 style platforms, despite all the other options out there. The controls of the Spear/MCX are the same... Stoner got the ergos right, and they just WORK.
 
Phat Eagle said:
Keeps people working... LoL

That said: I think it is clear: more and more militaries are equipping themselves with AR/M4 style platforms, despite all the other options out there. The controls of the Spear/MCX are the same... Stoner got the ergos right, and they just WORK.
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If you have not, try and spend a little time with an X95. The more I use it, the more I like it. And this is coming from someone who owns four AR's and carried a C7 in service. I've been using AR platform for 30+ years and I do like it .... mostly because it's familiar and comfortable to use. But it is undeniable that the X95 is well designed and functional.
 
The real reason is the US can supply all the M4 parts easily and they cost a fraction of the price to make. I am guessing with 300k deployed they need 1 platform and it has been decided the M4 is easier to field given that is what the majority of the reserve units have that were mobilized for the war.
 
powerbaitron said:
The real reason is the US can supply all the M4 parts easily and they cost a fraction of the price to make. I am guessing with 300k deployed they need 1 platform and it has been decided the M4 is easier to field given that is what the majority of the reserve units have that were mobilized for the war.
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Except that they're replacing the American supplied M4s as well.
 
anyone who's been in knows that procurement is a whole different beast and that what you get is not what's necessarily the best equipment but the most cost effective to be employed on a mass scale (think the amount of parts required, the supply chain for those parts, how many armorers you have to train, etc etc)

AR-15s are so ubiquitous that it's got every procurement advantage. Here's the quote from the first article:

we observed in the tests we conducted in the ranges that we need to transition to a unified weapon system because significant gaps have emerged, mainly in reserve battalions that are composed of soldiers from different units, some of whom used the Tavor and others the M4."
The ambition to rely on indigenous Tavor rifles marks the third attempt by the Israeli military in the past few decades to achieve self-reliance, following the Galil rifles in the 1970s and 1980s and the Tavors introduced in the early 2000s, both of which came short of the desired goals.
"This transition will provide significant maintenance flexibility, reduce the reasons for soldiers to transition from active duty to reserves, establish a standardized supply system, and generate long-term logistical cost savings," the officer explained.
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They want to settle on one platform for everyone and produce it domestically, it makes much more sense to do so on the AR-15 platform because your allies/sugar daddies all use such a platform. That's before talking about aftermarket availability for SOF etc
 
Those Palestinian children won't stand a chance!

Think of all the new war crimes they can commit with their new kit!

I hope our Uni-party corrupt leaders send all of our extortion taxes to Israel, or at least match the billions that they have sent to the money laundering machine in mother Ukraine!
 
The X95 may be short in length but it has an awkwardly long LOP and is bulky overall, it's not as handy as it appears on first glance.
 
IanON said:
Those Palestinian children won't stand a chance!

Think of all the new war crimes they can commit with their new kit!

I hope our Uni-party corrupt leaders send all of our extortion taxes to Israel, or at least match the billions that they have sent to the money laundering machine in mother Ukraine!
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Simping over Putin AND Hamas in the same post - stunning and brave but you're in the wrong forum.
 
870P said:
The X95 may be short in length but it has an awkwardly long LOP and is bulky overall, it's not as handy as it appears on first glance.
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Swapping out the rubber butt pad for the IDF thin butt pad makes a huge difference to LOP. The soft rubber pad also tends to catch on clothing, which the thin butt does not.
 
I Dont Care About You said:
Swapping out the rubber butt pad for the IDF thin butt pad makes a huge difference to LOP. The soft rubber pad also tends to catch on clothing, which the thin butt does not.
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It's still a 14" LOP though, which is just too long when shooting squared up, especially with gear on.
 
Painkillers said:
^^^Nah. It's perfect with the thin butt plate, perfect.
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Maybe if you're an NBA center, or you shoot like this guy...

chicken-wing-rifle.jpg
 
I would take my X95 over the C7 I had to shlep around for 7 years any day. I would also take my 14.5 C8 that sits in my safe over my X95 any day. Long and heavy is the worst, short and heavy is a little better, short and light is king... (That's what she *never* said).
 
Painkillers said:
^^^Nah. It's perfect with the thin butt plate, perfect.
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Yea, I like it.


Overlander2018 said:
I would take my X95 over the C7 I had to shlep around for 7 years any day. I would also take my 14.5 C8 that sits in my safe over my X95 any day. Long and heavy is the worst, short and heavy is a little better, short and light is king... (That's what she *never* said).
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As a lefty, I am really liking the X95. A lot less gas in the face. Even though it is heavier, it balances better. The wife is also liking how her X95 balances. It's much easier than a conventional rifle setup.

Full length rifles kinda suck.
 
IanON said:
Those Palestinian children won't stand a chance!

Think of all the new war crimes they can commit with their new kit!

I hope our Uni-party corrupt leaders send all of our extortion taxes to Israel, or at least match the billions that they have sent to the money laundering machine in mother Ukraine![/QUOTE

Let me know when youre go fund me page is set up. Ill gladly be the first donor to help you go and document all the war crimes in Gaza.
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