Shadow 2 carbine kit.

It will be interesting how both the ATF and the RCMP treat this set up. Clearly it is different than say, my Kidon Kit in that you are essentially creating a new gun ie a carbine using the entire lower frame ie the registered part for most pistols to create a PCC. In the US that creates a SBR if the barrel length is less than 16".
In Canada, if the barrel is less than 18" or less (I don't use metric in coversations) you create a need to register the now carbine with a part that is already registered.
In the end it both cases it becomes a beauorcratic decision by both the ATF and the RCMP.
Priced right the unit should sell well to the competition market.

Take Care

Bob
 
OMG! I can't even watch that whole vid!! Someone bring this to Kanuckastan and someone PLEASE take my money!! STAT!!
 
Silver69 this kit, if the pricing holds will cost about $2K Cdn if it gets here. It will be interesting to see how the ATF and the RCMP treat this kit. The kit goes up against the US SBR rules for kit using a barrel less than 16" and our Classification laws regarding barrel length.

The Kidon Kit cost me about $500 CDN when I bought it and I know I paid the high end of the retail price when I got it. A dedicated PCC will run you between $1,000 and $1,500 depending on the model. The advantage of using some form of kit is you get the benefits of a Carbine at a marginal increase in cost if you already have the pistol. The downside is of course you use the ability to at the same time enjoy the use of the handgun as a pistol. I am thinking 2 or 3 gun competitions.

Pricing will be the key. Coming out of Germany it won't be cheap.

Take Care

Bob
ps I mentioned the ATF and the US because it will be that market that determines if the ki makes its way to N.A.
 
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Thanks for bringing me back to the real world Cannuck. Good points to note....in the interim I will keep dreaming...(There's no way I would spend $2K for that anyway)
 
Same idea as the MechTech System, which is already in Canada and requires no additional registration as the handgun is already registered as restricted.
 
Agreed to above. The Cz frame is the register component. Although its description may change. I’d assume it’s a Cz shadow pistol even though it’s in that configuration.

Neat idea though
 
Canuck44 said:
It will be interesting how both the ATF and the RCMP treat this set up. Clearly it is different than say, my Kidon Kit in that you are essentially creating a new gun ie a carbine using the entire lower frame ie the registered part for most pistols to create a PCC. In the US that creates a SBR if the barrel length is less than 16".
In Canada, if the barrel is less than 18" or less (I don't use metric in coversations) you create a need to register the now carbine with a part that is already registered.
In the end it both cases it becomes a beauorcratic decision by both the ATF and the RCMP.
Priced right the unit should sell well to the competition market.

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...

Nothing changes, it's a restricted Handgun. Always was, always will be, unless you chop the barrel down.
 
While I agree nothing will likely change considering the AR15 pistol gave us 10 rds on our AR 15'S and Scorpion pistol , er, ah, nope only 5 rds for the Scorpion some of you might want to add "should" to your certainty. When it comes to FRT classifications, nothing is certain.

Take Care

Bob
Ps if you bought the kit with a 18.5" barrel designed for a CZ 75B lower as a separate carbine....what then? My FX 9 with an 18.5" barrel is a non restricted. Put a 10" barrel on it and the PCC becomes a restricted sidearm with the receiver now having to be registered. If you put the 18.5" upper back on the registered receiver is it now non restricted. I think you might have to send a picture to your CFO.....the 10" upper is a restricted device. In the case of the FX9 the receiver is not.
 
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But the frame has already been registered as a restricted. As a bare frame as it sits stripped in a gun safe without any parts it’s still a restricted firearm. So adding it to a longer barrel and slide assembly wouldn’t change what it is.
 
mctrigger said:
But the frame has already been registered as a restricted. As a bare frame as it sits stripped in a gun safe without any parts it’s still a restricted firearm. So adding it to a longer barrel and slide assembly wouldn’t change what it is.
Click to expand...

Make a new firearm using a new 75B frame that has never been registered using a new buttstock, a new forearm and a 18" barrel and it becomes a PCC not a hand gun that should not require registering - see FX9 above. My point is that nothing the RCMP has ruled has been consistent in every case. Why? because non of the rules are consistent and some would argue little of it makes any sense at all.

Take Care

Bob
ps I doubt there is a business model that would make any financial sense to bring this kit into Canada. The kit is a a very expensive limited use product aimed at an even smaller market and if it is over $2K .....
 
Canuck44 said:
Make a new firearm using a new 75B frame that has never been registered using a new buttstock, a new forearm and a 18" barrel and it becomes a PCC not a hand gun that should not require registering - see FX9 above. My point is that nothing the RCMP has ruled has been consistent in every case. Why? because non of the rules are consistent and some would argue little of it makes any sense at all.

Take Care

Bob
ps I doubt there is a business model that would make any financial sense to bring this kit into Canada. The kit is a a very expensive limited use product aimed at an even smaller market and if it is over $2K .....
Click to expand...

Wrong. A CZ 75 frame is a CZ 75 frame, and a CZ 75 frame is a handgun frame. Therefore it’s a Handgun and is only Restricted or Probibited. There is no such thing as a CZ75 frame that never been registered and such a thing would be impossible to get. The only way you could make it work is by making a new frame, here in Canada, and make it in such a way that it is not compatible with a CZ75 slide so that is could not be readily turned into a handgun.

As for your FX9 point it too is wrong and flawed. The receiver is the firearm, and its classification depends on the configuration that’s it registered as. When you put on the shorter than 18.5” barrel, it simply becomes a “short barreled rifle”, not a handgun or “sidearm”. Short barreled with can readily have their classifications changed by changing the barrel attached, but they don’t become handguns.
 
First off I suspect there are any number of handgun frames including the 75B that are not registered in Canada. But that aside and I will go slowly so you don't miss anything.

You can buy with 4" and 10" barrels that will fit unregistered PCC's with 18.5" barrels. If you attach a 10" barrel to the frame you have 30 days I believe to register the PCC as a restricted firearm. You can also unregister a restricted firearm with a 16" barrel if you replace it with an 18.5" barrel. Once changed and unregistered the gun becomes unrestricted. Are you aware of this? Probably not.

So if the kit comes rto Canada with an 18.5" barrel and you use a 75B frame that is registered why could you not register the now 18.5" PCC as an unrestricted forearm? Oh I know you don't think that doesn't change anything but you don't know that and you won't until you apply to your CFO to deregister your new PCC.

I never heard the "Short Barreled Rifle" designation in Canada. The SBR rules relate to US Law as far as I know.

What I do know that as of right now Semi Auto center fired long guns with a barrel length less than 18" -there is now a Metric limit but for this discussion 18" will have to do so don't wet your pants if I use the Imperial measurement.

When you put your handgun in a kit it becomes a PCC or at least as far as IPSC is concerned. I am trying to get as ruling from IDPA on the subject.

You are right as long as the kit has a barrel length of less than 18" the PCC/Handgun requires to be registered BUT put an barrel on greater than 18" than what? If all you own at that point is a PCC consisting of an upper of 18.5" and the frame of the 75B what is the difference between it and our friend the CX4 Storm with an 18" barrel that is not registered?

It is not as black and white as you suggest. If you have a kit using an 18.5" barrel, buttstock and forearm is it a handgun or a PCC? At that point it is not designed to be shot one handed, it has all the characteristics of a Carbine or rifle.

This kit would be of real interest if handguns were remained to be banned and you could convert your 75 to a carbine simply by destroying your upper of the pistol and use the lower frame to create a legal semi auto carbine. All that might be of interest provided Trudeau does not get is way and ban all semi auto rifles and shotguns which he has indicated he will in time.

Much of this will depend on how the RCMP decides to rule. What I do know is nothing is for certain and the rules are not rules but mere suggestions. Sometimes you get the peanuts aka the AR magazine ruling using 10 round pistol mags and the shells, the same ruling in reverse for the CZ Scorpion using pistol mags.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
While I agree nothing will likely change considering the AR15 pistol gave us 10 rds on our AR 15'S and Scorpion pistol , er, ah, nope only 5 rds for the Scorpion some of you might want to add "should" to your certainty. When it comes to FRT classifications, nothing is certain.

Take Care

Bob
Ps if you bought the kit with a 18.5" barrel designed for a CZ 75B lower as a separate carbine....what then? My FX 9 with an 18.5" barrel is a non restricted. Put a 10" barrel on it and the PCC becomes a restricted sidearm with the receiver now having to be registered. If you put the 18.5" upper back on the registered receiver is it now non restricted. I think you might have to send a picture to your CFO.....the 10" upper is a restricted device. In the case of the FX9 the receiver is not.
Click to expand...

Once a handgun always a handgun. We dealt with this with air pistols like the 13xx, 22xx for over 20 years. In the states they come with longer barrels and stocks, but in Canada RCMP deems them pistols.

You cannot turn a handgun into a rifle. My TC no matter the barrel length I install, does not changes it from a restricted handgun. Despite you can in the states.

Pistol caliber carbine, why you can change the classification as it's a carbine, not a handgun.

Even a un registered cz frame is a handgun once it arrives in Canada, no matter the barrel length.

You have to do like what they did with the browning Buckmark rifle or those revolver rifles. Make a frame with a stock.

Freedom ventures sells a kit simular to this with a longer barrel for glock and its still a pistol.
 
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"You have to do like what they did with the browning Buckmark rifle or those revolver rifles. Make a frame with a stock."

Exactly and that is what I am suggesting.

"From OttawaFirearms Safety.ca, "handgun means a firearm that is designed, altered or intended to be aimed and fired by the action of one hand, whether or not it has been redesigned or subsequently altered to be aimed and fired by one hand."

The fact it is a handgun frame is not the issue.

The various Acts speak only about "Firearms" . Firearms are either Restricted, Prohibited or Non-retricted. as classified by the RCMP. So all I am suggesting is if you owned a 75 frame without the slide and barrel neither of which is the registered part, attached a buttstock and forearm via this kit with an 18.5" barrel you would be able to apply for the frame to be de-registered and considered a non restricted firearm. I am not saying it will be approved but I am not so sure as some of you are that it is impossible to do. We already have a prime example of that being done in the case of the CX4 Storm where you can go from restricted to non-restricted and the FX 9 where you go from non-restricted to restricted. If you sold off your 10" barrel and installed an 18" barrel you could apply for the FX9 to be re-classified as non-restricted per the carbines original Classification.

The kit is not registered. The frame while it is registered is not a firearm until it meets the definition of a firearm but nothing more than a registered part of a firearm similar to the Sig 320's trigger group. It seems to me adding a buttstock and a forearm frame makes it into a carbine and if it is a carbine with a18.5" barrel you have a good claim that it is now not a restricted firearm and could be considered for reclassification to a non-registered firearm. Given the wide variations of decisions I would not be surprised either way.

Non of your examples you give are similar to this situation.

BTW the frame of the Sig 320 is considered nothing more than a stock. The only part that is registered is the trigger group.

The AR receiver alone is the registered part and because the AR is a named firearm the receiver is classified restricted right now. Even the upper thanks to the OIC is considered banned by the OIC. C 21 may have changed that. In the case of the FX9 and other carbines the receivers are not classified as restricted because neither has been named, As long as they have a barrel length greater than 18" the guns are nonrestricted.

Interesting and if I had the time or the money to buy one of those kits if and when they are produced I would try for the reclassification. All it costs is a bit of paper, and a postage stamp.

Take Care

Bob
ps I have the kidon kit but unfortunately it uses the entire pistol and the barrel length is 5".


 
Canuck44 said:
"You have to do like what they did with the browning Buckmark rifle or those revolver rifles. Make a frame with a stock."

Exactly and that is what I am suggesting.

"From OttawaFirearms Safety.ca, "handgun means a firearm that is designed, altered or intended to be aimed and fired by the action of one hand, whether or not it has been redesigned or subsequently altered to be aimed and fired by one hand."

The fact it is a handgun frame is not the issue.

The various Acts speak only about "Firearms" . Firearms are either Restricted, Prohibited or Non-retricted. as classified by the RCMP. So all I am suggesting is if you owned a 75 frame without the slide and barrel neither of which is the registered part, attached a buttstock and forearm via this kit with an 18.5" barrel you would be able to apply for the frame to be de-registered and considered a non restricted firearm. I am not saying it will be approved but I am not so sure as some of you are that it is impossible to do. We already have a prime example of that being done in the case of the CX4 Storm where you can go from restricted to non-restricted and the FX 9 where you go from non-restricted to restricted. If you sold off your 10" barrel and installed an 18" barrel you could apply for the FX9 to be re-classified as non-restricted per the carbines original Classification.

The kit is not registered. The frame while it is registered is not a firearm until it meets the definition of a firearm but nothing more than a registered part of a firearm similar to the Sig 320's trigger group. It seems to me adding a buttstock and a forearm frame makes it into a carbine and if it is a carbine with a18.5" barrel you have a good claim that it is now not a restricted firearm and could be considered for reclassification to a non-registered firearm. Given the wide variations of decisions I would not be surprised either way.

Non of your examples you give are similar to this situation.

BTW the frame of the Sig 320 is considered nothing more than a stock. The only part that is registered is the trigger group.

The AR receiver alone is the registered part and because the AR is a named firearm the receiver is classified restricted right now. Even the upper thanks to the OIC is considered banned by the OIC. C 21 may have changed that. In the case of the FX9 and other carbines the receivers are not classified as restricted because neither has been named, As long as they have a barrel length greater than 18" the guns are nonrestricted.

Interesting and if I had the time or the money to buy one of those kits if and when they are produced I would try for the reclassification. All it costs is a bit of paper, and a postage stamp.

Take Care

Bob
ps I have the kidon kit but unfortunately it uses the entire pistol and the barrel length is 5".
Click to expand...

I highly doubt cz will make a custom frame for a kit. Especially for the Canadian market.

So it's back to once a pistol always.
 
Canuck, you will NEVER, under current Canadian law, be able to change the registration on a pistol from R to NR, no matter WHAT you do with it. You can post whatever theoreticals and hypotheticals you want, but it's all just fluff. You can ONLY make a handgun prohibited from restricted. R to NR is not possible.

The Buckmark is a NR rifle because it was manufactured as a NR rifle. It looks similar, it functions similar, it uses the same mags, but the stock is integral to the receiver. It was manufactured as a rifle that is similar to the pistol, but it was never and could never be the pistol.
 
OkayShooter said:
I highly doubt cz will make a custom frame for a kit. Especially for the Canadian market.

So it's back to once a pistol always.
Click to expand...

The fact that it is a pistol is not the issue. I would amend your statement to read: "So it's back to once a registered firearm always." Which is not really the case. The question is once a firearm is classified restricted can it be changed and we have examples that it can be. The question will the RCMP reclassify or not. That is the question. We wont know until someone applies for the reclassification.

BTW if you cut the buttstock off of your buckmark rifle so it can be shot with one hand you might want to read the definition of a pistol. By definition I posted above. I think you have converted your rifle to a pistol. Get out you application for registration.

Take Care

Bob
 
Scotty454 said:
Canuck, you will NEVER, under current Canadian law, be able to change the registration on a pistol from R to NR, no matter WHAT you do with it. You can post whatever theoreticals and hypotheticals you want, but it's all just fluff. You can ONLY make a handgun prohibited from restricted. R to NR is not possible.

The Buckmark is a NR rifle because it was manufactured as a NR rifle. It looks similar, it functions similar, it uses the same mags, but the stock is integral to the receiver. It was manufactured as a rifle that is similar to the pistol, but it was never and could never be the pistol.
Click to expand...
I mean TC is the best example.

All use the same 100% identical frame, all depends on how it entered Canada. No stock and barrel under 16" it's a pistol. Barrel under 18" and stock is a restricted carbine. Stock and barrel over 18", NR.

Now I cannot slap a stock on it and barrel meeting the 660mm OAL and turn it into a NR.

That kit would need to arrive in Canada with a never registered custom frame in order to be considered a rifle.
 
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