T1X 16 inch bbl in a Grey Birch folder OAL

The RCMP for many years now, do not accept add on's to the barrel as increasing the length... that goes back to days of the 30 M1 Carbine in the 80's.

Bradley, do you have it in writing?
 
Stevo said:
OAL is not barrel length.
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My thoughts...

OAL includes the barrel length... and if the added on piece is not accepted, then the barrel length has not been lengthened, thus the OAL would be too short...

Do you have it in writing?
 
guntech said:
My thoughts...

OAL includes the barrel length... and if the added on piece is not accepted, then the barrel length has not been lengthened, thus the OAL would be too short...

Do you have it in writing?
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The Firearms Act refers to OAL. It's not defined there, as far as I know.

I use a tape measure from tip to butt. If that happens to include a muzzle device, or a longer (or shorter) stock then that's the measurement I use. I'm confident OAL is OAL, not some BS where a muzzle device doesn't add in but a different length stock counts.

If you want an RCMP "interpretation" of OAL, go for it. Be careful what you wish for.
 
Stevo said:
The Firearms Act refers to OAL. It's not defined there, as far as I know.

I use a tape measure from tip to butt. If that happens to include a muzzle device, or a longer (or shorter) stock then that's the measurement I use. I'm confident OAL is OAL, not some BS where a muzzle device doesn't add in but a different length stock counts.

If you want an RCMP "interpretation" of OAL, go for it. Be careful what you wish for.
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Right or wrong (wrong in my opinion) the RCMP have their definition of barrel length and any add on muzzle devices (whether they detach or are welded on) are not included in measuring barrel length) They determined this I believe in the early 80's. It affected every licensed gunsmith and every owner of a 30M1 Carbine with a factory 18 inch barrel who had extended the barrel with a welded on extension.

So my guess is today if you came across an RCMP who thought your folded up rifle with an added on muzzle brake looked too short... you may run into some difficulties.

Be careful is my advice. OAL is OAL but if part of your measurement includes an added on device the RCMP says is not included in barrel length, your OAL is suddenly shorter.

All I am saying is be careful when making your interpretation of the law. What makes sense is not always the law.
 
It's pretty dumb that welding an extension onto a barrel to add a 1/2" of length to keep the children safe is unacceptable given that it would bascially result in the same thing that some power drunk clowns find acceptable.... the fact that a muzzle device does count for over all length, but can not be used to lengthen the barrel measurement in order to satisfy an arbitrary measurement..... is just more proof we are living in a clown world.
 
guntech said:
Right or wrong (wrong in my opinion) the RCMP have their definition of barrel length and any add on muzzle devices (whether they detach or are welded on) are not included in measuring barrel length) They determined this I believe in the early 80's. It affected every licensed gunsmith and every owner of a 30M1 Carbine with a factory 18 inch barrel who had extended the barrel with a welded on extension.

So my guess is today if you came across an RCMP who thought your folded up rifle with an added on muzzle brake looked too short... you may run into some difficulties.

Be careful is my advice. OAL is OAL but if part of your measurement includes an added on device the RCMP says is not included in barrel length, your OAL is suddenly shorter.

All I am saying is be careful when making your interpretation of the law. What makes sense is not always the law.
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You're still conflating barrel length with OAL. They're not the same thing. Yes, a welded muzzle device doesn't change "barrel length". We're talking about OAL, though.

OAL of the assembled firearm is what counts. I could have a a 27" long 10/22 stock with an 8" barrel nestled in it, shorter than the stock, and it would be NR.

OAL is the important part for NR rimfires. Barrel length is irrelevant. OAL isn't magically shorter because part of it is attached to the muzzle.

If you don't believe an wrenched on muzzle device counts into OAL, then I can't help you with that. Write a letter to the RCMP lab. They always follow the law, right?

Regarding the bolded part of your quote, you can be 100% legal and still get jacked up by Constable Knowlittle because of his ignorance of the law.
 
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At one point in time my buddy inquired about this very thing with the lab. This was about 8 years ago, and it regarded a 10/22 in an ArkAngel Nomad stock, where the aftermarket barrel he bought along side the stock made the gun shorter than 26". The store he bought the stock and barrel from told him he could just add a muzzle device to keep it NR, but I questioned the legality of that so he emailed the RCMP about it.

The response from a Lab Tech was No. Muzzle devices DO NOT count towards OAL. I had my friend forward me the response, but sadly it was lost when I graduated university and lost access to my Uni email.

There is one exception to this rule that I know of though. The TROY PAR rifles in 223 with the folding stock are only NR with the pinned on muzzle device is counted towards overall length - my understanding is they were originally deemed R, but upon appeal the Lab decided to count the muzzle device. This is the only firearm I know of where the muzzle device was as part of the OAL measurement.

So it seems likely that it is POSSIBLE for a muzzle device to count towards OAL, but as a general rule it is certainly safer to assume they don't count.


Stevo said:
You're still conflating barrel length with OAL. They're not the same thing. Yes, a welded muzzle device doesn't change "barrel length". We're talking about OAL, though.

OAL of the assembled firearm is what counts. I could have a a 27" long 10/22 stock with an 8" barrel nestled in it, shorter than the stock, and it would be NR.

OAL is the important part for NR rimfires. Barrel length is irrelevant. OAL isn't magically shorter because part of it is attached to the muzzle.

If you don't believe an wrenched on muzzle device counts into OAL, then I can't help you with that. Write a letter to the RCMP lab. They always follow the law, right?

Regarding the bolded part of your quote, you can be 100% legal and still get jacked up by Constable Knowlittle because of his ignorance of the law.
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Can you provide proof of when OAL was accepted based on a muzzle device that was not permanently attached?

I can think of at least one example where modifications to a gun WERE NOT accepted - DLASK tried to make NR KelTec CMRs by installing a piece of metal to the side of the gun that would block the stock from collapsing all the way. The Lab said that is not good enough and would not reclassify the guns, even though the OAL could not go shorter than 26" without using tools to remove parts.
 
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Suther said:
At one point in time my buddy inquired about this very thing with the lab. This was about 8 years ago, and it regarded a 10/22 in an ArkAngel Nomad stock, where the aftermarket barrel he bought make the gun shorter than 26". The store he bought the stock and barrel from told him he could just add a muzzle device to keep it NR, but I questioned that so he emailed the RCMP about it.

Their response was No. Muzzle devices DO NOT count towards OAL. I had my friend forward me the response, but sadly it was lost when I graduated university and lost access to my Uni email.

There is one exception to this rule that I know of though. The TROY PAR rifles in 223 with the folding stock are only NR with the pinned on muzzle device is counted towards overall length - my understanding is they were originally deemed R, but upon appeal the Lab decided to count the muzzle device.

So it seems likely that it is POSSIBLE for a muzzle device to count towards OAL, but as a general rule it is certainly safer to assume they don't count.
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Anecdotal evidence of two different lab "interpretations" doesn't prove much.
 
guntech said:
The RCMP for many years now, do not accept add on's to the barrel as increasing the length... that goes back to days of the 30 M1 Carbine in the 80's.

Bradley, do you have it in writing?
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Barrel length - no, muzzle devices do not, although with your example, I believe that there are more than a few non-restricted M1 Carbines that wouldn't pass muster by today's standards, having welded flash hiders...

OAL - totally different story.

Bradley
 
It seems you are the only one confusing barrel length and OAL.

If a device added is not part of the barrel length, how can it be included in the overall length?

This does not matter to me one way or the other... my days of short barrels and folding stocks are long over.
 
PaveHammer said:
Barrel length - no, muzzle devices do not, although with your example, I believe that there are more than a few non-restricted M1 Carbines that wouldn't pass muster by today's standards, having welded flash hiders...

OAL - totally different story.

Bradley
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While I agree that OAL *should* be a different story, I'm not entirely sure that it is. Certainly, the lab doesn't seem to think it is all that different.

And those previously-NR M1s that were made NR by welding an extension on were deemed R guns many many years ago. While I don't doubt some people still have unregistered ones that they think are NR, that doesn't make them NR...


If a muzzle device is enough to make an R gun into an NR gun, why don't we just slap fake cans on CMR30s to make 'em NR? Why do we have to go through the hassle of buying a new barrel? Why was this mod not allowed?

Dlask Arms said:
Morning guys. So, to answer the GSG-16 vs. CMR-30 stock pinning question. The GSG-16 is already non-restricted and therefore we simply swapped barrels and modified the 'stock' to maintain minimum OAL. There was no change of status needed. However. To change the status of a Restricted firearms the firearm cannot have been modified by reducing cutting, sawing blah blah to the rear portion of the gun. There is NO mention of swapping barrels to make it a longer OAL. We originally tried to come up with something more simple and user friendly to install :

View attachment 423170

We made this nifty little block that screws between a slot under the Picatinny rail on the top which limits the stock movement. Once black Loctite has been applied this thing would need to be machined out to remove it. We asked the RCMP Lab if this was cool and were told flat out 'No', because of the rule I mentioned above, and that ended that idea. This kind of had us scratching our heads because this was exactly the same method of making the rifle N/R as what another company had done which is when were told "Why do you think they aren't bring more in if it was kosher with the RCMP ?" There is currently NOT an FRT number for a non-restricted CMR-30. I did however send the a Verification Report yesterday informing them of what we did to this rifle, along with the barrel length and OAL dimensions so hopefully a child entry will be forthcoming soon.

Taking a new approach we decided to make a new, longer barrel and just leave the back of the rifle alone. This is the same thing we do to change the status on any Restricted firearm and is seen as an acceptable method per the RCMP. The B&T's, USC's, P-08 Lugers, all short barreled hand guns etc. use a longer barrel to change their status from P to R or from R to N/R. Will this method be 'interpreted' as not allowed in the future ? Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of the Lab.

I know that some of you have perused the regs, criminal code and firearms act etc. and you think that navigating the 'interpretations' of the SFSS Lab is a breeze. 'Hey Dlask, why don't you just do this or that.....?' Seems easy, right ?

No, no it's not. Regardless of how smart you think you are or how many threads you've read on CGN it is NEVER that easy. This is why the general non-shooting public seldom, if ever, understand our frustration as a community. When you try to explain the inconsistencies and irregularities all brought on by vague rules, if you can call them that, and the ever changing 'interpretations' by the SFSS they just go glassy eyed and think you're making it all up as a gun toting crazy arse redneck. "There's NO way that's how it is, it makes NO sense !" they say. But, they're 100% wrong because the rules we have to follow are that messed up. And if our old friend JT gets re-elected in the next election it's going to get so much worse...

I digress, sorry.

So for those of you that say we are employing a 'sales tactic' or whatever, no we are not. These are the ridiculous rules made for us, the common serf, living in an RCMP / Libtard controlled gun world and we are forced to comply whether we have a common sense argument against them or not.

We cannot make a longer hand guard, sorry Mr. Files, simply because the body of the gun is an extrusion and we would need to sink serious dough into getting dies made to have our own extrusion to play with. Pretty sure Kel Tec isn't going to sell us some of theirs although since we are friendly with the official Canadian distributor I suppose I could ask....
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Suther said:
While I agree that OAL *should* be a different story, I'm not entirely sure that it is. Certainly, the lab doesn't seem to think it is all that different.

And those previously-NR M1s that were made NR by welding an extension on were deemed R guns many many years ago. While I don't doubt some people still have unregistered ones that they think are NR, that doesn't make them NR...


If a muzzle device is enough to make an R gun into an NR gun, why don't we just slap fake cans on CMR30s to make 'em NR? Why do we have to go through the hassle of buying a new barrel? Why was this mod not allowed?
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Because many of our gun laws make no sense what so ever.
 
guntech said:
It seems you are the only one confusing barrel length and OAL.

If a device added is not part of the barrel length, how can it be included in the overall length?

This does not matter to me one way or the other... my days of short barrels and folding stocks are long over.
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All a person needs to do to measure over all length is to pull a measurement from one end to the other parallel to the bore axis thought that part is not really spelled out..... there is no need to measure the barrel independently and then add it's legal length to the receiver and stock measurements.

In the case of the OP's example the T1X's barrel length would remain at 16" and the over all length would be what ever it measures out at.
 
Can-down said:
Because many of our gun laws make no sense what so ever.
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Can-down said:
All a person needs to do to measure over all length is to pull a measurement from one end to the other parallel to the bore axis thought that part is not really spelled out..... there is no need to measure the barrel independently and then add it's legal length to the receiver and stock measurements.

In the case of the OP's example the T1X's barrel length would remain at 16" and the over all length would be what ever it measures out at.
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These two posts are giving two different answers... Unless you think adding a muzzle device to a CMR30 is enough to make it NR??
 
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