No.4 mk1 bolt question

Will have a look at front sight base options before I do anything, thanks.

I shot it yesterday, less than stellar accuracy haha. Have some pics of brass I’ll post in a bit, hopefully you guys more knowledgeable than myself can give me an opinion.
 
So the good at the range, the rifle feeds, fires and extracts as it should. Sights are on, poa/poi at 100m on the 200m setting of the MK1 was a touch low as it should be.

The bad, accuracy is poor. There’s barrel contact at the last 2” of the sporterized forend, the last couple inches of rifling near the muzzle looks a bit worn The crown looks good, I have not slugged the bore but it’s a 2 grove barrel. I’ll have to file out the forend and free float it fully, if that doesn’t improve things I’ll think about cutting the barrel. It currently measures at 23.75” from a closed bolt head to the crown, so I have a bit over 5” to play with cutting and still be in the 18”-18.5” legal length. I generally am less comfortable with a peep sight so I used a 5” black triangle on a 2’x3’ sheet of white paper so I would have a good repeatable sight picture to try an remove that from the equation, I am comfortable shooting irons in general though.

Some visible case expansion, more of a radial expansion than anything in my opinion. So I’m guessing I’ve got somewhat of an oversize chamber vs excessive headspace. I have two Okee guages, their No-go and Field guages. They measure in at .066” for the no-go and .073 for the field, vs Laider’s listed sizes of .064” for the Go and .074” for the No-go armourer’s guages. My bolt won’t easily close on either of mine, could likely force it to close on the .066” and there’s noticeable resistance on the .073” As far as I see it headspace is good.

I fired some NOS Dominion CIL and some new PPU fmj, I couldn’t feel any ring internally with a wire so I cut one of each open to see what case walls near the web actually looked like. Looks better than I was expecting but let me know what you think. None of my other Lee Enfield’s exhibit much in the way of headspace or chamber size issues so this is something new for me. I didn’t use an o-ring on any of the case rims but I’ll do so next time. PPU is on the left and Dominion on the right in the sectioned brass pic.

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So the good at the range, the rifle feeds, fires and extracts as it should. Sights are on, poa/poi at 100m on the 200m setting of the MK1 was a touch low as it should be.

The bad, accuracy is poor. There’s barrel contact at the last 2” of the sporterized forend, the last couple inches of rifling near the muzzle looks a bit worn The crown looks good, I have not slugged the bore but it’s a 2 grove barrel. I’ll have to file out the forend and free float it fully, if that doesn’t improve things I’ll think about cutting the barrel. It currently measures at 23.75” from a closed bolt head to the crown, so I have a bit over 5” to play with cutting and still be in the 18”-18.5” legal length. I generally am less comfortable with a peep sight so I used a 5” black triangle on a 2’x3’ sheet of white paper so I would have a good repeatable sight picture to try an remove that from the equation, I am comfortable shooting irons in general though.

Some visible case expansion, more of a radial expansion than anything in my opinion. So I’m guessing I’ve got somewhat of an oversize chamber vs excessive headspace. I have two Okee guages, their No-go and Field guages. They measure in at .066” for the no-go and .073 for the field, vs Laider’s listed sizes of .064” for the Go and .074” for the No-go armourer’s guages. My bolt won’t easily close on either of mine, could likely force it to close on the .066” and there’s noticeable resistance on the .073” As far as I see it headspace is good.

I fired some NOS Dominion CIL and some new PPU fmj, I couldn’t feel any ring internally with a wire so I cut one of each open to see what case walls near the web actually looked like. Looks better than I was expecting but let me know what you think. None of my other Lee Enfield’s exhibit much in the way of headspace or chamber size issues so this is something new for me. I didn’t use an o-ring on any of the case rims but I’ll do so next time. PPU is on the left and Dominion on the right in the sectioned brass pic.

...

A couple comments - I notice that SAAMI defines a Minimum Headspace and a Maximum Headspace - I can not find in SAAMI material where they define what is a "NOGO" gauge's dimensions. If someone know how and where SAAMI defines a NOGO gauge, I would appreciate to hear or read that. I think a NOGO gauge is a barrel maker or perhaps a reamer maker invention, not a SAAMI thing. What I read was that military Armourers had a FIELD gauge - the rifle obviously were over Minimum (GO) size, since they were chambering and firing the standard ammo - but the concern was if the bolt lugs or something else had worn or stretched - hence, if bolt closed on FIELD gauge, chamber was too long to continue in service - might be repairable, might not be - depending what was wrong - maybe with bolt or maybe with receiver??

For sure I have a set here for 30-06 made by Clymer - a GO Gauge, a NOGO gauge and a FIELD gauge. For most others that I bought, I just bought a "GO" gauge, and install shims made from a feeler gauge between bolt face and GO gauge to know "head space" of that unit.

I suspect that I read much where people form opinions about head space, based on rimless cases, like 30-06 or 308 Win, and then apply those ideas to rimmed cases like 303 British or 30-30 Win, or to belted cases like 300 H&H or 300 Win Mag. I think the best case life and longevity probably comes from "head spacing" on the case shoulder if that is possible - like on 303 British or 300 Win Mag - but probably not dependable on a 300 H&H or similar. Personally, I think the "headspace" thing is over done - when I reload, I try to make these brass fit that chamber, and the specific "head space" number really does not matter - might be different if only SAAMI compliant factory ammo is used - likely is good plan to have a SAAMI compliant chamber.

Also, the military standards apparently had nothing directly to do with SAAMI - all of WWI (when train loads of 303 British cartridges were made and fired) was all at least a decade before SAAMI existed - so I believe most militaries set their own standards for their ammo and rifles - 6.5x55, 30-06, 8x57JS, etc. - all were in use in the world, long before SAAMI existed in the USA. Is my opinion, that except for Canada, about no one else in the world cares about SAAMI standards, unless they want to sell something into the USA.

So, much of the stuff that you read about 303 British, has to be kept in mind how it was used, then. Brass was fired ONCE - was not suppossed to burst and was supposed to extract, most of the time - ONCE. What may have happened to the brass case during firing was not really a concern - the need was to fire and then extract - once. It is us that insist on trying to reload those brass - not what the original designers were asked to consider.

Same with the rifles and the tolerances they were built to - to be "good enough" for "government work" to fire that cartridge and extract it - none of them were designed as target precision rifles - although the odd one shot much better than the next one - was purely random - perhaps stacking or cancelling tolerances. I think the over arching concern was to make a LOT of them, and to make them CHEAPLY as possible, and still to perform sort of "good enough".

Perhaps many of the design criteria that were important then, do not mean much now - they had to serve as a bayonet handle - they were used by strong young fellows to "butt strike" - they were fighting guns - but, with some features removed, they could become saleable as hunting rifles. And the were sold off as surplus so cheap after the WWII, about any one and his brother to try their hand at making one into a "hunting gun" - Lee Enfield, Enfield's, German 98 Mausers, Swede 96 Mausers, and so on.
 
PAMiner, when I chamber a 303 Brit, I have several rounds with very thick rims.

I like to run the reamer just far enough so the bolt closes easily on those rounds (fire and resized, no primer, fmj bullet inserted)

This always works well with the gauges, but it also ensures very little if any cant in the chamber, which we get with many old Lee Enfields of all marks.

The reamer I have access to is cut on the minimum side of specs so if the bore diameter is on the small side, and in excellent condition, the rifles should shoot well.

Bb, If you want that rifle to shoot well, IMHO, spin off that barrel and pick up a take off at one of the gun shows in our area over the next couple of months.

Pentiction is this coming week end, Kamloops is the following weekend and Lumby is happening on Lumby Days, June 15-16

I might have a take off bbl that looks much better than that, but very likely, so do you.

If barrels looking like the one in your pic don't shoot well, they're hardly worth chasing after and wasting valuable components.
 
Bb, If you want that rifle to shoot well, IMHO, spin off that barrel and pick up a take off at one of the gun shows in our area over the next couple of months.

Pentiction is this coming week end, Kamloops is the following weekend and Lumby is happening on Lumby Days, June 15-16

I might have a take off bbl that looks much better than that, but very likely, so do you.

If barrels looking like the one in your pic don't shoot well, they're hardly worth chasing after and wasting valuable components.

The pics make it look worse than it is, once you look further in things look a lot crisper but yeah it might be toast, I’d like to slug it and see what it measures out at. No harm in trying a couple things, if the muzzle end is worn no harm in cutting it back as well.

I do not have a spare barrel for it, nor do I have an action/barrel wrench. We’ll see if opening up the forearm and free floating it will change anything, my time is irrelevant as it’s a good learning experience. My other Lee Enfield’s have all be in good shape so I’ve never had to think about a barrel swap, I know it’s a chore if you don’t have the proper tools. It would all depend on what a take off barrel and smith’s time to swap would cost, somethings aren’t always worth doing. Although I’m not into this for more than $30-40 for the parts it was missing.

What do you think of the brass pics?
 
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The pics make it look worse than it is, once you look further in things look a lot crisper but yeah it might be toast, I’d like to slug it and see what it measures out at. No harm in trying a couple things, if the muzzle end is worn no harm in cutting it back as well.

I do not have a spare barrel for it, nor do I have an action/barrel wrench. We’ll see if opening up the forearm and free floating it will change anything, my time is irrelevant as it’s a good learning experience. My other Lee Enfield’s have all be in good shape so I’ve never had to think about a barrel swap, I know it’s a chore if you don’t have the proper tools. It would all depend on what a take off barrel and smith’s time to swap would cost, somethings aren’t always worth doing. Although I’m not into this for more than $30-40 for the parts it was missing.

What do you think of the brass pics?

They're pretty much normal for an average war time production No4, no matter who built them.
 
They're pretty much normal for an average war time production No4, no matter who built them.

Good, thanks.

I’m going to play around with it regardless, when I stick a feeler wire down the muzzle till I get to where the barrel starts to look nicer it’s around the 4.5”-5” mark. So even if I take 5.5” off I’m still at 18.5” for barrel length, I’ll slug it first to see where it’s at. Maybe an oversized cast bullet will be what it needs, or maybe it’s a parts gun.
 
In a typical Lee Enfield, the brass is gonna balloon even with perfect rim headspace. Yours is no exception. Sporter Lee Enfields with cut down forestocks generally shoot better with some fore-end pressure. The exception is if the barrel is not centered in the forestock. Loosen the forestock slightly to see if this is the case.
 
In a typical Lee Enfield, the brass is gonna balloon even with perfect rim headspace. Yours is no exception. Sporter Lee Enfields with cut down forestocks generally shoot better with some fore-end pressure. The exception is if the barrel is not centered in the forestock. Loosen the forestock slightly to see if this is the case.

It’s not centered either, I’m going to check the forend fit over the weekend. My LB sporter is free floated and shoots well but it has a nice barrel with crisp rifling.
 
It’s not centered either, I’m going to check the forend fit over the weekend. My LB sporter is free floated and shoots well but it has a nice barrel with crisp rifling.

Throw a bit of acra glass or whatever you use for bedding onto the ways and king screw lug, put a couple of wraps around the barrel where it's touching the barrel, and put it back together. Let the bedding cure and then take off the fore-end, so you can remove the tape.

Your barrel should be perfectly centered and solid where it needs to be.

Adding the bedding compound at the ways/king screw, will fix two common issues, forward and sideways slop, which is the nemesis of accuracy in a Lee Enfield.

Fore-end pressure was incorporated into the design of the N04, but it utilized a full-length stock to apply the pressure closer to the muzzle. The rest of the barrel is free floating.

As soon as a stock is "sporterized" everything changes, cut the barrel off and it changes some more.

Harmonics are completely different and a pressure point that worked before is now useless.

The reason pressure pads were carved into many stocks is simple. Back in the day, it was a cheap and reliable method to ensure accuracy within certain specified boundaries.

Those boundaries no longer apply, what with the advent of CNC Machine manufacture where all parts are interchangeable to the point of being so close you could zero a micrometer with them.

A shorter barrel will be "stiffer" and very likely won't require a forward pressure pad as long as the ways are tight and the king screw area is solid.

This is just IMHO, but I've done a lot of this sort of "fix" on Lee Enfield sporters and if the rifle wants to shoot well, this almost always fixes the problems.

The other issue is large or worn bores, not much you can do there.
 
Bearhunter, thanks. That was my next step, if forend fitting doesn’t improve things I’ll start thinking about cutting back the barrel. I’m going to slug the bore and see where things are, process of elimination will shed some light on the root cause lol.
 
OP - maybe you already know, but some other readers might not - a Lee Enfield about different to most other rifles when you remove the forearm - about worst is to pry down the front end - as if it was a single shot hinge action shotgun - you might get it off that way, but will likely break or mush up the "ways". That forearm needs to come off staying more or less parallel to that barrel. To some extent a Lee Enfield is like a Ruger 10-22 - is only one screw holding that fore-stock to the receiver - so, is possible to get left and right "slop" on the rear end of the action - which means the barrel gets to slop left and right, also - is about same "fix" - make it fit snug at rear, make that one attachment screw to be fixed in place, and your barrel will also stay where you thought it might. As noted above - a Lee Enfield was not made to be a target rifle - although there was competitions that used them - the last one that I made up is meant to put 215 grain bullets into a group about size of palm of your hand at about 20 yards - is what i want it for - to win a "fight" - is not for winning a competition or shooting tiny groups at 100 yards - I do have other rifles that are supposed to do that - is not really what those Lee Enfield guns were designed to do.
 
There should be a picture here of the "last" lee enfield No. 4 that I have "done up" for some reason or other ...

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Is several features that may or may not be significant to some. That is a Mk.I made-by-Maltby receiver - not a Mk.I* - I think the British made ones are "better" than the North American made ones by Savage or Long Branch. That is a "not used much" "two groove" barrel that has been cut back to 18.5 inches long and installed on that receiver. That is a Bishop brand butt with rounded pistol grip and Monte Carlo comb - it has no cheek piece, so pretty much ambidextrous. Those are Parker Hale A20 and A21 scope mount bases, with PH RALS.3 rings. The scope is a Weaver K3-1 with taper post reticle. The front sling band on the barrel is by "Uncle Mike's", or maybe "Butler Creek" - I think is actually made for a 28 gauge shotgun or similar diameter. That rifle's purpose in life to is be small enough to ride in my side-by-side with me, and when the damn thing quits or I get stuck, to go with me to walk home through Manitoba bush - is many black bears, timber wolves and coyotes here - I have done so, once, with a stick - next time will be with this rifle.

The forearm was shortened from the "sporter" length that it was - is at least 3" shorter now - and was some fussing to try to dye the butt stock and that mil-surp forearm to look sort of the same. Simply finished with boiled linseed oil.
 

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Good info about removing the forearm, yes I was aware of it. Same with removing the forearm before trying to unscrew the stock bolt on the No.1, good way to crack the thing.

It’s interesting though about accuracy, some are really qood. I have a ‘42 LB No.4 that’s been sporterized, I hunted with it for 3-4 years. It’s will shoot 1”-1.5” 5 shot groups @100 m off bags with federal blue box 180gr and 150gr S&B sp, free floated forend, 2 grove barrel. Hard to complain with it, it has an Addley mount and a 3x9 Bushnell on it and has put a fiar amount of meat in the freezer.
 
Potashminer, nice looking rifle. If I can get mine sorted out and shooting I would like something similar but with irons only.


Did some digging into the forend, it was way out. I wasn’t getting even contact in the ways/draws, the king screw spacer wasn’t tall enough and there was a lot of side to side slop at the king screw lug, lots of contact with the barrel at the front of the forend. Even with the king screw out it would still not center in the forend on its own.

I sanded out the forend, took a couple light passes off the left way/draw till the barrel would centre on its own. No real forward/backwards play in the fitment to speak of, I shimmed the king screw spacer under the trigger guard. Have no spring in the trigger guard with only the rear screw in and there’s no noticeable gap between the trigger guard and inlet for it. Barrel is taped to center it while I bed the ways and king screw lug, have to find something for bedding compound.
 
Last LE I bedded I used JB weld, metal re enforced stuff. Only problems I had with bedding them is some stocks have so much oil in them from 75 to over a 100 years of use the JB won’t hold. Had to hog some more wood out to get past the soaked in oils.
 
^ Same here - I found similar oily-ness on various Swede military rifles as well - was never sure that I had got enough oil out for epoxy to stick securely to the wood fibres, so I started to habitually make deliberate "mechanical locks" for the epoxy to grab to - like 1/8" or 3/16" diameter drill holes, perhaps 1/8" to 1/4" deep - many of them - fill with epoxy for it to grab in there. I use those squeeze tubes of JB Weld - "Epoxy Steel" it says on the squeeze tubes - "Original Cold-Weld Formula - Steel Reinforced Epoxy" on the blister card. Squeeze tubes of Resin and Hardener are both 28.4 g Usually enough to do two or three rifles - then I toss the opened squeeze tubes and use "fresh ones" on next batch - which might be six months later. For release agent, I have been using either "Trewax Clear Paste Wax" or "Kiwi" brand Neutral Shoe Polish - whichever can that I happen to find first. I apply a layer - let it dry - buff it, then apply second layer - let that dry, buff it and get on with the epoxy job.
 
Yeah that was my thoughts as well, pretty typical oil soaked Enfield stock. Will have to pick up some JB Weld, looks like I’m all out of it. I’ve got some small dremel burrs that should be perfect to drill anchor points for the bedding. Now to figure out where my shoe shine kit and polish is.

I’m surprised someone used this rifle to hunt with lol.
 
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