No.4 mk1 bolt question

[x westie]

There should be a picture here of the "last" lee enfield No. 4 that I have "done up" for some reason or other ...

View attachment 763306

Is several features that may or may not be significant to some. That is a Mk.I made-by-Maltby receiver - not a Mk.I* - I think the British made ones are "better" than the North American made ones by Savage or Long Branch. That is a "not used much" "two groove" barrel that has been cut back to 18.5 inches long and installed on that receiver. That is a Bishop brand butt with rounded pistol grip and Monte Carlo comb - it has no cheek piece, so pretty much ambidextrous. Those are Parker Hale A20 and A21 scope mount bases, with PH RALS.3 rings. The scope is a Weaver K3-1 with taper post reticle. The front sling band on the barrel is by "Uncle Mike's", or maybe "Butler Creek" - I think is actually made for a 28 gauge shotgun or similar diameter. That rifle's purpose in life to is be small enough to ride in my side-by-side with me, and when the damn thing quits or I get stuck, to go with me to walk home through Manitoba bush - is many black bears, timber wolves and coyotes here - I have done so, once, with a stick - next time will be with this rifle.

The forearm was shortened from the "sporter" length that it was - is at least 3" shorter now - and was some fussing to try to dye the butt stock and that mil-surp forearm to look sort of the same. Simply finished with boiled linseed oil.

Nice rifle ..!, I agree with what you say that the British built No.4 Mk.1 rifles are better than the North American No.Mk 1*, British Army armourers were never impressed with the North American No.4 Mk.1* bolt removal system, too much change of damage to the fragile bolt rail on the side of the receiver,making it almost impossible to fix if damaged

 

[Potashminer]

Potashminer, nice looking rifle. If I can get mine sorted out and shooting I would like something similar but with irons only.


Did some digging into the forend, it was way out. I wasn’t getting even contact in the ways/draws, the king screw spacer wasn’t tall enough and there was a lot of side to side slop at the king screw lug, lots of contact with the barrel at the front of the forend. Even with the king screw out it would still not center in the forend on its own.

I sanded out the forend, took a couple light passes off the left way/draw till the barrel would centre on its own. No real forward/backwards play in the fitment to speak of, I shimmed the king screw spacer under the trigger guard. Have no spring in the trigger guard with only the rear screw in and there’s no noticeable gap between the trigger guard and inlet for it. Barrel is taped to center it while I bed the ways and king screw lug, have to find something for bedding compound.

Is an assumption that one is starting with "straight things" - is a long forearm here - the end 4 inches (10 cm) has decided to go to one side - barrel is centred from receiver all the way - until that last "bit" - so, at least one instance where the stock is warped - barrel is straight - draws are good - but was that wood fore end that was / is the challenge.

 

[Butcherbill]

Is an assumption that one is starting with "straight things" - is a long forearm here - the end 4 inches (10 cm) has decided to go to one side - barrel is centred from receiver all the way - until that last "bit" - so, at least one instance where the stock is warped - barrel is straight - draws are good - but was that wood fore end that was / is the challenge.

I thought that initially but it mine seems straight once I had a good look, I put some oil on the recoil lugs and put it together and there was more contact on one of the draws/ways than the other from what oil transfer there was. After a couple light passes with a chisel contact is equal and the barrel centered when I set it in without the king screw as well as with it screwed in. The hole in the stock for the king screw and spacer has been hogged out on the receiver side, so there was noticeable side to side play.

Have things degreased as best as I can, dimpled the areas with a dremel and taped off the outside and am ready to bed with jb weld. Should I remove the trigger/spring and mag release or just degrease and apply release agent with it assembled. Tempted to grab some modeling clay tomorrow and dam up the mag well and other cavities in the receiver as well. I know I’m not adding much epoxy but it should make cleanup that much easier I would think.

 

[Potashminer]

I thought that initially but it mine seems straight once I had a good look, I put some oil on the recoil lugs and put it together and there was more contact on one of the draws/ways than the other from what oil transfer there was. After a couple light passes with a chisel contact is equal and the barrel centered when I set it in without the king screw as well as with it screwed in. The hole in the stock for the king screw and spacer has been hogged out on the receiver side, so there was noticeable side to side play.

Have things degreased as best as I can, dimpled the areas with a dremel and taped off the outside and am ready to bed with jb weld. Should I remove the trigger/spring and mag release or just degrease and apply release agent with it assembled. Tempted to grab some modeling clay tomorrow and dam up the mag well and other cavities in the receiver as well. I know I’m not adding much epoxy but it should make cleanup that much easier I would think.

JB weld tends to be thick enough to more or less stay where you put it - but there will be "hell to pay" if any of it oozes into that mechanism - by and large, has been my practice to completely strip the receiver - plug off all pin and screw holes with clay - then apply release agent in two coats - then epoxy - and I have still ended up with one that was "stuck together" - outside in minus 30 C for like a couple of hours to get that one apart - (a Win Model 70 in 22-250). For many years, I apply release agent even where I do not expect the epoxy to go - always amazed where it actually did go when I separate the barrelled action from the stock. In old days, the original Accraglas was very runny - I used dams often - to hold that stuff where I wanted it to be - not nearly so critical with modern stuff - not nearly as runny.

 

[Butcherbill]

Roger that, I figured that would be the best way to avoid any complications lol.

 

[Butcherbill]

Well bedding went well, things came apart easily. I used 2 coats of minwax paste wax as a release agent and closed any area’s with play-doh that needed it. Have a void or two to skim coat near the rear of the receiver, and some flashing to clean up.

Quick question for anyone that’s bedded a No.4, how much benefit will there be to bedding in front of the king screw lug? Like making a wall from the front of the screw lug to where the barrel meets the stock, the Knox I seem to remember it being called. It’s only a 1/16” or so, I would think it would act in concert with the now bedded king screw lug. Basically creating a bit of a front recoil lug, I don’t remember if there is a gap between the wood and receiver originally or if there was support and the inletting was tight.

As it is now the ways/draws have full contact, the king screw lug is supported nicely and after watching some No.4 bedding videos there is a skim coat under the full length of the receiver. Will creating more support ahead of the screw lug be a benefit or a not?

Toying with a skim coat under the trigger guard to correct fit/gap and restore a bit of the rear clamping it would have originally had under the draws from what I understand. The video below is how I approached bedding.

 

[Potashminer]

I am sure others will comment about their practices - reading how they were "accurized" for long distance shooting games - like at Bisley - I think some had plates installed around that "king" screw place to create really solid base, or perhaps those plates were welded to the receiver to counter act the action roll - then dowels were inserted toward rear to counteract the desire for the receiver to want to "roll" upon firing - something to do with the spin direction of that bullet travelling down that rifled bore. I have never done either, but I have never competed in target games either. A buddy who has done up a few, seems focused on how that floor plate mates to the stock at the bottom - as if is like a spring there - to the extent that he even glass beds that rear part of the trigger guard.

FYI - that rifle that I made up - the original barrel was so rusted and worn - or maybe originally made oversize? - I had initially cut it off circa 20" long, and a 0.308" bullet dropped completely through that barrel and fell out on floor - nominally, I think the top of the rifling was supposed to be around 0.303" - was easy enough at that time to source a better barrel and I have the tools here to swap them, so I did.

 

[Butcherbill]

I am sure others will comment about their practices - reading how they were "accurized" for long distance shooting games - like at Bisley - I think some had plates installed around that "king" screw place to create really solid base, or perhaps those plates were welded to the receiver to counter act the action roll - then dowels were inserted toward rear to counteract the desire for the receiver to want to "roll" upon firing - something to do with the spin direction of that bullet travelling down that rifled bore. I have never done either, but I have never competed in target games either. A buddy who has done up a few, seems focused on how that floor plate mates to the stock at the bottom - as if is like a spring there - to the extent that he even glass beds that rear part of the trigger guard.

FYI - that rifle that I made up - the original barrel was so rusted and worn - or maybe originally made oversize? - I had initially cut it off circa 20" long, and a 0.308" bullet dropped completely through that barrel and fell out on floor - nominally, I think the top of the rifling was supposed to be around 0.303" - was easy enough at that time to source a better barrel and I have the tools here to swap them, so I did.

I don’t think there’s much if any bearing just ahead of the screw lug under the barrel ring, so I might just skim coat it in the middle as well as the space I front of the screw lug at the same time. Have to fill a void at the very rear anyway, worse case I can remove epoxy in front of the screw lug. I’m going to shim under the trigger guard and see how much contact if any is there, the spring at the rear trigger guard screw supposedly has a lot of clamping power when the king screw is tightened.

Will slug the barrel next, picked up a 1/4” dowel to drive a slug through the bore. When I insert a .311 bullet into the muzzle it doesn’t go in very far but knowing bore dia will be nice.

 

[Potashminer]

Be really careful to try to drive in a barrel with a wood dowel - common enough for that dowel to break a long split - then wedges itself in the bore and a real mess to get out. Some of us have 1/4" brass or steel rod for that job - I usually wrap electrician vinyl tape around the rod so it does not "slap" steel to steel against the top surface of the rifling. Some time ago, I bought some .375" lead balls - I think Hornady brand for some kinds of round ball black powder pistol - I set rifle butt on floor - tap one of those balls into the muzzle - it usually shears off and makes reasonable impression of bore diameter right at the muzzle - do NOT hit muzzle with hammer!

As far as putting a bullet into muzzle, I have seen people do that, but do not really understand what they are doing - bullet going to be stopped by the diameter of the surface of the rifling - whereas when fired a bullet typically is going to seal into bottom of the grooves. I suppose if bullet of choice falls all the way in, then you know rifling and groove are over size - not sure I can understand what is being done if the bullet does NOT fall in - is never going to tell you groove diameter? Maybe some can "gauge" by eye to tell difference between bore diameter versus groove diameter?

I think many times, rifling was cut circa 0.004" deep - so about thickness of printer paper. Is possible that some cartridges might have been spec'd to be deeper or shallower than that?

 

[Butcherbill]

Be really careful to try to drive in a barrel with a wood dowel - common enough for that dowel to break a long split - then wedges itself in the bore and a real mess to get out. Some of us have 1/4" brass or steel rod for that job - I usually wrap electrician vinyl tape around the rod so it does not "slap" steel to steel against the top surface of the rifling. Some time ago, I bought some .375" lead balls - I think Hornady brand for some kinds of round ball black powder pistol - I set rifle butt on floor - tap one of those balls into the muzzle - it usually shears off and makes reasonable impression of bore diameter right at the muzzle - do NOT hit muzzle with hammer!

As far as putting a bullet into muzzle, I have seen people do that, but do not really understand what they are doing - bullet going to be stopped by the diameter of the surface of the rifling - whereas when fired a bullet typically is going to seal into bottom of the grooves. I suppose if bullet of choice falls all the way in, then you know rifling and groove are over size - not sure I can understand what is being done if the bullet does NOT fall in - is never going to tell you groove diameter? Maybe some can "gauge" by eye to tell difference between bore diameter versus groove diameter?

I think many times, rifling was cut circa 0.004" deep - so about thickness of printer paper. Is possible that some cartridges might have been spec'd to be deeper or shallower than that?

I think it’s just a way to get a feel if it’s real large at the muzzle, not a real substitute for slugging it.

If you cut the dowel into 6-8” pieces you don’t have the same risk of it flexing and breaking, you get a short stiff section vs. a long flexible length. Oil the bore and lube the slug as well.

 

[Snider shooter]

I use a 0.312 180 gr RN as a gauge. Used the same bullet for close to 10 years. If there’s about a 1/4” between muzzle I know it a tight bore. If the crimp groove touches the muzzle the bore is well worn. I have had it fall down two barrels which I knew it likely would as wasn’t much rifling left. I don’t bother slugging 303 bores as I find it a waste of time. Using jacketed bullets you don’t have any options , 0.310 ,0.311or 0.312 factory stuff.
With lead bullets if my 0.312 aren’t working I can always use a larger sizer.

 

[Butcherbill]

Alright, things are cleaned up and reassembled, once the JB Weld hardens and cures I’ll play around with shimming the trigger guard to see where it stands.

Slugging the 2 groove barrel gave me .312 across the groves, .303 on the barrel dia itself. I will reshoot and see if anything improves after bedding the receiver, if it does I have a couple different bullets to handload with. I have two different weights of flat base .312 Hornady bullets and .311 Sierra spritzer bullets and two Lee .312 molds which I can powdercoat up in size.

So we’ll see how it goes, hopefully it will improve next time I shoot it. When I slugged it I ran a oily patch through the bore and lubed the lead slug with Lee case lube, no problem pushing it through with dowel cut into 6-8” lengths once I tapped the slug into the muzzle.

 

[Butcherbill]

Quick update since bedding and free floating the barrel, things improved quite a bit. I shot some 174gr PPU fmj and 150gr S&B sp, accuracy with the PPU improved but was still poor with a 9.5” five shot group at 100m. The S&B shot much better, nine shots into 3.5” at 100m with the irons, nice to see an improvement over the “pattern” it originally shot before I bedded the action.

PPU

S&B

 

[cosmic]

Thats about as good as one could reasonably expect using iron sights at 100 m. If you want to continue along this path, mounting a decent scope would be beneficial.

 

[Butcherbill]

Thats about as good as one could reasonably expect using iron sights at 100 m. If you want to continue along this path, mounting a decent scope would be beneficial.

Thanks, that’s what I thought as well. I’m going to try a couple hand loads with a bigger diameter bullet and see if groups improve, I might have to mount the weaver rail back on it as well. Happy it’s showing improvement though.

 

[bearhunter]

Alright, things are cleaned up and reassembled, once the JB Weld hardens and cures I’ll play around with shimming the trigger guard to see where it stands.

Slugging the 2 groove barrel gave me .312 across the groves, .303 on the barrel dia itself. I will reshoot and see if anything improves after bedding the receiver, if it does I have a couple different bullets to handload with. I have two different weights of flat base .312 Hornady bullets and .311 Sierra spritzer bullets and two Lee .312 molds which I can powdercoat up in size.

So we’ll see how it goes, hopefully it will improve next time I shoot it. When I slugged it I ran a oily patch through the bore and lubed the lead slug with Lee case lube, no problem pushing it through with dowel cut into 6-8” lengths once I tapped the slug into the muzzle.

With those bore dimensions, I would try loading some .308 diameter bullets to see how well they shoot.

I had a two-groove 43 LB with the same bore measurements and it shot .308 bullets better than the larger diameters.

It may have been a one-off, but it's worth a try.

 

[Butcherbill]

With those bore dimensions, I would try loading some .308 diameter bullets to see how well they shoot.

I had a two-groove 43 LB with the same bore measurements and it shot .308 bullets better than the larger diameters.

It may have been a one-off, but it's worth a try.

Can’t hurt to try I guess, I also have a bag of Campro’s that are .310 iirc. So lots of options to try, the big question now is do I keep it as is or use it for the .45acp conversion kit? It would be a nice truck gun now that it’s shooting better, but it didn’t cost me anything and would be a great donor rifle for the .45 conversion.

I already have a no.4 sporter that shoots very accurately, so I don’t really need two that shoot .303 lol. I guess we’ll see how it shoots with handloads. No lack of sporterized no.4’s out there to use for a .45 project, so picking up another with a roached barrel won’t be a problem.

 

[bearhunter]

I've never really understood the concept or statement "Truck Gun" then utilizing an inferior performing firearm to hunt with at similar ranges?

Why bother going to the expense of putting together or purchasing a fine for the job rifle, such as your other sporter, which is a proven better performer and opt for one of lesser ability?

I know other folks with beautiful rifles, perfectly suited and very capable performers, leave them at home in the safe to gather dust, other than a range trip or two every year.

Then, they take a beater of questionable accuracy on the hunt. Why, so "someone else" can enjoy it later after they're gone?

I recently picked up a lovely Voere, made back in the day when double-set triggers, which I love, were still considered top-of-the-line. Habicht scope, lovely wood, and a tack driver chambered for the 243Win.

It carries like a dream, and shoulders perfectly to align with my eye when brought up quickly.

60 years that rifle gathered dust in the closet it was stored in. The previous owner used a "truck gun" instead.

I have the "truck gun" as well, at best, with factory ammo, which is what was used in it, the rifle shoots 6 inch groups at 100 yds and wears a crappy Japanese 3X scope that should have been mounted on a 22rf. It's parallax-free at 25 yards and gets progressively worse with distance.

Every time I come across one of these things, I wonder how many WOUNDED animals ran off to die in a horrible manner. All because the shooter used a "truck gun" with questionable performance.

 

[Butcherbill]

For me a truck gun isn’t one of questionable performance, it’s a shooter that may not be cosmetically in the nicest shape. Something I don’t mind keeping in the truck all year or bouncing around on dirt roads. It’s got to shoot accurately for me to hunt with it, be handy to grab and carry around and have irons. This no.4 fits the majority of my truck gun criteria, final accuracy will be what decides it for me. So far it’s looking up, need to shoot it more to see if it will be appropriate. For me a truck gun is a utilitarian rifle not a it a thing of beauty, it’s no different than the 4lb sledge I keep behind the seat with my socket set.

 

[Butcherbill]

Another update on this No.4, I loaded up some IMR4320 and BL-C2. 180gr Campro RNSP,I loaded in half grain increments from start loads for both powders. IMR 4320 was nothing special across the range, 4-5” groups at 100m. BL-C2 was the ticket, 3” on average with a nice 2” group for the 41.5gr load.

I’m going to play with BL-C2 more, fine tune things and shoot some better quality bullets than the Campro’s. Real nice powder to work with, should meter really well once I settle on a load.

Here’s some pics, all were shot at 100m off front and rear bags with the micrometer peep sight. Which I’m starting to really enjoy shooting.

The BL-C2 that made me happy.

Best of the IMR4320 groups