Bear rifle. Will 44 mag be enough?
- Thread starter Jdiep
- Start date
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Absolutely, the pressure waves travelling through tissue from a .45-70 and anything impacting under 2200fps don’t cause permanent tissue damage away from the immediate wound tract. They’re lethal, but rely solely on the immediate wound tract, and will routinely result in less impressive kills than a regular rifle cartridge (2500fps+).
This tissue damage of ruptured cell walls away from the immediate wound tract is how modern rifles work in terminal ballistics, every military realized it by the First World War, it took to FBI until the late 20th century when they studied it and replaced shotguns and sub guns with 5.56 carbines. They realized 2200fps impacts were the cutoff, with a phase shift in terminal effects.
People think the .45-70 is a ‘big gun’, it’s not unfortunately, the wound tract from a .243 or .270 is more impressive. A .270 is one of the most oft cited most impressive ballistic recipes on game by Guide’s, including my head guide and Ted here. 130 grains at 3000fps, a .243 is 100 grains at 3000fps. The difference is less than many imagine, just push a bullet fast enough.
None of this says a .45-70 won’t kill bears, but it is a shorter not a hammer or stopper, quite far from it. It does have upsides, like penetration, but that falls behind the importance of strong terminal ballistic performance in tissue when the big picture is looked at. I’ve seen many, many bears shot, it became very clear what was most effective, just as Dogleg illustrates and Ted will tell you. Speed kills, slow kills slower on average.
The least impressive cartridge I guided on big Grizz was a stiff bullet .450 Marlin. I always talked Americans into their elk rifles for Grizzly whenever they got on the big bore tilt.
This tissue damage of ruptured cell walls away from the immediate wound tract is how modern rifles work in terminal ballistics, every military realized it by the First World War, it took to FBI until the late 20th century when they studied it and replaced shotguns and sub guns with 5.56 carbines. They realized 2200fps impacts were the cutoff, with a phase shift in terminal effects.
People think the .45-70 is a ‘big gun’, it’s not unfortunately, the wound tract from a .243 or .270 is more impressive. A .270 is one of the most oft cited most impressive ballistic recipes on game by Guide’s, including my head guide and Ted here. 130 grains at 3000fps, a .243 is 100 grains at 3000fps. The difference is less than many imagine, just push a bullet fast enough.
None of this says a .45-70 won’t kill bears, but it is a shorter not a hammer or stopper, quite far from it. It does have upsides, like penetration, but that falls behind the importance of strong terminal ballistic performance in tissue when the big picture is looked at. I’ve seen many, many bears shot, it became very clear what was most effective, just as Dogleg illustrates and Ted will tell you. Speed kills, slow kills slower on average.
The least impressive cartridge I guided on big Grizz was a stiff bullet .450 Marlin. I always talked Americans into their elk rifles for Grizzly whenever they got on the big bore tilt.
What is your take on the idea that to stop a bear you're looking for breaking bones or damaging the central nervous system? I've shot a few black bears with my 270win, and while it certainly kills them decisively, I haven't had one drop where they were shot. If these were a defensive situation the bear would still get to me before it was dead.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The trouble with this subject, whether talking a Texan client into a better choice for a hunting rifle, or debating around the campfire, or on forums is people seek superlatives. ‘The best’ choice hands down, stops em dead, etc. It’s all a spectrum naturally, with a few distinct performance change landmarks you can’t help but note after stacking lots of bears. One is that speed kills. My head guide’s name is Ted too, must be something in the guide water. His choice was a .270WSM, took his own grizz with the .270 too.
Now on the penetration, I get the argument, a straight line penetrator has its point and raisons d’être. Some working guys go that way, trusting their ability to shoot precisely and break bone in a straight line over all else. WDM Bell was one, actually, despite his dislike of big bores that grew as time went on. For most, modern terminal effect is more important, especially for hunting bears which is quite different than planning on solely stopping them at 10 yards and letting the client kill his own bear at all ranges past that.
I would argue most purposes for a bear rifle in Canada, have more in common with the hunter’s role than the guide’s. And if you subscribe to the guide thinking, then choose a gun that does it all, penetrates and provides the adequate speed; I choose .375. A .45-70’s just too slow, but I get the handy gun argument. To each their own. The .44 article I first posted in the thread here did a good job of illustrating average effects at different velocity ranges.
Now on the penetration, I get the argument, a straight line penetrator has its point and raisons d’être. Some working guys go that way, trusting their ability to shoot precisely and break bone in a straight line over all else. WDM Bell was one, actually, despite his dislike of big bores that grew as time went on. For most, modern terminal effect is more important, especially for hunting bears which is quite different than planning on solely stopping them at 10 yards and letting the client kill his own bear at all ranges past that.
I would argue most purposes for a bear rifle in Canada, have more in common with the hunter’s role than the guide’s. And if you subscribe to the guide thinking, then choose a gun that does it all, penetrates and provides the adequate speed; I choose .375. A .45-70’s just too slow, but I get the handy gun argument. To each their own. The .44 article I first posted in the thread here did a good job of illustrating average effects at different velocity ranges.
buck knife
CGN Regular
- Location
- Golden forest
I'll say I've killedquite a few lack Bears and whitetail bucks with .44magnum ,240 grain hollow points and broke plenty of bone.If in a dangerous situation like grizz country,Id have nothing but 45/70 and 12guage with a good slug .44 magnum is a great black bear /deer round , but at 50 yards or closer.remember it's a pistol caliber round ,12and 45/70 have a lot more room for powder and lead.
I have a Ranch hand in .44 magnum, it is my bear defence gun only because it is the easiest and lightest for me to pack when hiking or otherwise not hunting out in the bush.
I usually hunt with a .308 and wouldn't feel under gunned with that against a bear. I also have guns in 45/70, 458 win mag, .300 win and 30-06 among others that would all do the job.
Ardent has articulated the fast/slow question well IMO
I usually hunt with a .308 and wouldn't feel under gunned with that against a bear. I also have guns in 45/70, 458 win mag, .300 win and 30-06 among others that would all do the job.
Ardent has articulated the fast/slow question well IMO
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I’m can follow that, my next acquisition or build is likely to be a torquey handgun cal 1892. All for the handiness, not for the terminal effects. But put it in the right place, it’ll take a bear. You just get more leeway and quicker effects with a modern rifle.
I get that speed kills no argument there. The issue becomes one of the bullet choice. At have to shoot to save your ass distance a non bonded bullet at 3000fps may not busy thru the chest and into the vitals. I've seen my 2506 pancake a 117gr interlock bt on a deers chest at 20 yards. Not a shot I would have taken but my buddy was excited and he thought it was an effective shot. The Buck dropped and got up and ran several hundred yards before bleeding out. Massive wound but the bullet never made it thru the brisket. Now the 2506 is a great deer cartridge no doubt but speed has its limits. I used my 2506 to take likely my largest black bear. Broadside shot just flattened a boar that dressed 290ish iirc. Just under 300lbs hanging gutted anyway. I've also shot a bear at 12' with a 4570. 405gr rem FN at 1600fps. Shot thru the ear and then thru the neck and out the offside shoulder. I highly doubt my 2506 could have made an exit on that shot. However it likely would have still killed the bear.
A hard controlled expanding bullet is needed for high impact at close range to punch thru thick hide muscle and bone. I have no experience with grizzlys but they got to be bigger than black bears. Yes deer rifles are quite at home killing bears even big ones. But a front chest shot at close range speed isnt everything if you can't get penetration. A heavy for caliber bullet at modest velocity is more likely to penetrate heavy bone and muscle at close range.
I've also seen total failures with Barnes tsx bullets shooting into deer carcasses with my 2506. They'd shed the pedals in the first couple inches making a nice wound but then the shank was a caliber size wound which didn't do much damage at all.
Either way whatever camo you fall into believing any gun is better than using finger nails
A hard controlled expanding bullet is needed for high impact at close range to punch thru thick hide muscle and bone. I have no experience with grizzlys but they got to be bigger than black bears. Yes deer rifles are quite at home killing bears even big ones. But a front chest shot at close range speed isnt everything if you can't get penetration. A heavy for caliber bullet at modest velocity is more likely to penetrate heavy bone and muscle at close range.
I've also seen total failures with Barnes tsx bullets shooting into deer carcasses with my 2506. They'd shed the pedals in the first couple inches making a nice wound but then the shank was a caliber size wound which didn't do much damage at all.
Either way whatever camo you fall into believing any gun is better than using finger nails
I've often heard the 92 is of the weaker lever actions available. How torquey can you get out of one? 454 casull being about the top end of factory rifles is it not? Can that be topped?
Huh? Sorry if this is off topic, but you better do some research about the 1892 before you say things like that.
The model 1892 is a scaled down version of the model 1886, which was certainly the strongest lever gun made.
Looked at terminal balistics. 45-70, 12ga have similar Ft. Lb. (energies about 1500); .44 mag, about half that.
While 308 has a bunch more, I doubt that it would kill any faster, and maybe not as fast because its like shoving a pin through fabric, whereas the larger slughs are like shoving a golf ball. You hit bone with a 12 ga or a 45-70, it will be smashed; the 308 might just punch a hole.
I think both the 9.3 X 57 and 9.3 X 62 would be OK also, but if I had to have something for bear defense, as short 12 ga with slugs would be my choice.
While 308 has a bunch more, I doubt that it would kill any faster, and maybe not as fast because its like shoving a pin through fabric, whereas the larger slughs are like shoving a golf ball. You hit bone with a 12 ga or a 45-70, it will be smashed; the 308 might just punch a hole.
I think both the 9.3 X 57 and 9.3 X 62 would be OK also, but if I had to have something for bear defense, as short 12 ga with slugs would be my choice.
I’ll be trying out my 9.3x57 for bear and my hunting partner will right there with a x62 just incase.. I’m Sure It’ll do just fine
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
…it does. It’s not about the bullet diameter. Your 9.3x62’s a gun I was happy to guide, that’s a fantastic chambering. It has something in common with the .308; adequate speed. And a lot of bullet going fast enough doesn’t hurt.
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
This be best for folks worried about bear charges. Great fer bush creeps as well. 
[video=youtube_share;WOoUVeyaY_8]https://youtu.be/WOoUVeyaY_8[/video]
[video=youtube_share;WOoUVeyaY_8]https://youtu.be/WOoUVeyaY_8[/video]
I agree speed does not hurt. but speed does not do the work; the bullet does.
How big a plough can you pull with a Porsche 911 with 400+ hp compared to Newholland tractor with 150 hp? In this case, it is weight that gets the ground broken up. So it is with big heavy bullets and bone/soft tissue.
Listen to "what she said" size does matter.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Actually velocity completely does the work as how does a bullet at rest, work. The very definition of work in physics, “is the energy transferred to or from an object via the application of force along a displacement”.
Firearms are kinetic energy weapons, using energy to displace and damage tissues in game in our instance. The energy imparted on the bullet determines how much work can be done. Seen several hundred creatures shot, it becomes undeniable speed is the most important of the basic factors at play.
Combine this with the 2200fps impact threshold at which cell walls rupture as pressure waves travel through tissues, and you have your explanation of why guns like the .270 is so often the guide’s choice.
Firearms are kinetic energy weapons, using energy to displace and damage tissues in game in our instance. The energy imparted on the bullet determines how much work can be done. Seen several hundred creatures shot, it becomes undeniable speed is the most important of the basic factors at play.
Combine this with the 2200fps impact threshold at which cell walls rupture as pressure waves travel through tissues, and you have your explanation of why guns like the .270 is so often the guide’s choice.
