Sub2000 gen-3

Are these really that ####ty?

Watched a few reviews, they seem to run decent, accurate enough, trigger is better, the light weight is more appealing to me then the folding aspects, and it doesn't look like a Highpoint lol.

I wasn't a fan of the Gen2 simply because the irons looked they would get destroyed fairly quickly.

Ruger PC looks durable on paper, but reviews show some issues with those as well.

Actually every PCC reviews I've watched on all these newer types have some kind of issue or another. 9mm AR would be great...but you know..
 
Are these really that ####ty?

Kinda. These run well enough and the price is fair, but imo the Gen3 ends up in no-mans-land for use case? For example when compared to other folding PCCs:
If wanting to use a red dot, the FPC is slightly larger and feels in hand like the superior folding carbine.
If wanting smallest and lightest - while satisfied with iron sights - the Gen2 S2K is the unicorn of the Canadian market PCCs. But upgrade the Gen2 sights and charging handle as a minimum investment.
 
Are these really that ####ty?
Watched a few reviews, they seem to run decent, accurate enough, trigger is better, the light weight is more appealing to me then the folding aspects, and it doesn't look like a Highpoint lol.
I wasn't a fan of the Gen2 simply because the irons looked they would get destroyed fairly quickly.
Ruger PC looks durable on paper, but reviews show some issues with those as well.
Actually every PCC reviews I've watched on all these newer types have some kind of issue or another...

Like all things, it depends on what you want. If you want smallest and lightest with a proven track record and an excellent warranty, then there's still nothing better. I never fold my Gen2 S2K except to clean it, and I'd gladly give up that feature if it would make it even more light and compact.

The recent Gen2 S2K iron sights were durable enough, but not easy to use for most people. The front sight is actually pretty good, and the rear sight can be modified or upgraded to make it more usable. Since the vast majority probably mount a red dot, it's a non issue for most. You can take the sights off, by the way, and the rifle is even lighter and more slick and compact. Gen2 are still available new, and cheap. Personally, I prefer them to Gen3.

You're right that all the PCC options all have their quirks. Handle them side by side if you can (shooting them is better, obviously). You'll probably know right away which one you prefer. I strongly prefer the KT mostly because of the size, weight and balance, the fact that it has a pretty long history (they've worked the kinks out), and the warranty. Plus, I like KelTec as a company (but I'm not a fanboy, I've tried and passed on some other KT products). But the S2K feels really light (a turnoff for some), and feels rough around the edges. The Ruger PCC feels solid and well finished, has reasonable iron sights on the basic model, but it's heavy, feels overbuilt (a turnoff for some), and worse still it's nose heavy so it handles poorly IMO, and it feels like an overblown 10/22. The S&W FPC feels nice to handle, balances pretty well, but it has no iron sights, requires M&P magazines (actually much more expensive and harder to find), and requires a magazine spacer sleeve (unless you track down the even harder-to-find M&P compact magazines), has a weirdly fat buttstock and a weirdly long and non adjustable length of pull, the safety is in the wrong location (for me), and probably ties with the HiPoint for looks.

Kinda. These run well enough and the price is fair, but imo the Gen3 ends up in no-mans-land for use case? ...

I agree, I didn't expect those changes for Gen3. But I guess it's really for the US market, and they are changes really meant to better compete against the S&W FPC. I think it does that well. In USD, the KelTec MSRP is $499, S&W is $699, and the Ruger is $779. The S&W costs 40% more than the KelTec (and the Ruger is 58% more than KT). Looks like the KT is competing well at its price point, and like most KT product they'll have no problem selling as many as they can produce.

Personally, I would have loved to see a Gen3 that kept the G17 length grip, extend the rail all the way back on the receiver, and LOSE THE FOLDING FEATURE to make it lighter, slimmer, simpler, cheaper, and stronger. But I know I'm in the minority on that one ;)
 
Like all things, it depends on what you want. If you want smallest and lightest with a proven track record and an excellent warranty, then there's still nothing better. I never fold my Gen2 S2K except to clean it, and I'd gladly give up that feature if it would make it even more light and compact.

The recent Gen2 S2K iron sights were durable enough, but not easy to use for most people. The front sight is actually pretty good, and the rear sight can be modified or upgraded to make it more usable. Since the vast majority probably mount a red dot, it's a non issue for most. You can take the sights off, by the way, and the rifle is even lighter and more slick and compact. Gen2 are still available new, and cheap. Personally, I prefer them to Gen3.

You're right that all the PCC options all have their quirks. Handle them side by side if you can (shooting them is better, obviously). You'll probably know right away which one you prefer. I strongly prefer the KT mostly because of the size, weight and balance, the fact that it has a pretty long history (they've worked the kinks out), and the warranty. Plus, I like KelTec as a company (but I'm not a fanboy, I've tried and passed on some other KT products). But the S2K feels really light (a turnoff for some), and feels rough around the edges. The Ruger PCC feels solid and well finished, has reasonable iron sights on the basic model, but it's heavy, feels overbuilt (a turnoff for some), and worse still it's nose heavy so it handles poorly IMO, and it feels like an overblown 10/22. The S&W FPC feels nice to handle, balances pretty well, but it has no iron sights, requires M&P magazines (actually much more expensive and harder to find), and requires a magazine spacer sleeve (unless you track down the even harder-to-find M&P compact magazines), has a weirdly fat buttstock and a weirdly long and non adjustable length of pull, the safety is in the wrong location (for me), and probably ties with the HiPoint for looks.

I agree, I didn't expect those changes for Gen3. But I guess it's really for the US market, and they are changes really meant to better compete against the S&W FPC. I think it does that well. In USD, the KelTec MSRP is $499, S&W is $699, and the Ruger is $779. The S&W costs 40% more than the KelTec (and the Ruger is 58% more than KT). Looks like the KT is competing well at its price point, and like most KT product they'll have no problem selling as many as they can produce.

Personally, I would have loved to see a Gen3 that kept the G17 length grip, extend the rail all the way back on the receiver, and LOSE THE FOLDING FEATURE to make it lighter, slimmer, simpler, cheaper, and stronger. But I know I'm in the minority on that one ;)

I like what you are selling...I doubt Keltec would venture away from the folding ####, that's kinda their thing lol.

But I agree, make me a plastic ass FX9 type of PCC that is cheap as #### and runs and priced like a Sub2000, and I'm in.

May still get after a Sub gen 2 or 3, dunno, one thing I don't have in the safe and I see the fun there.
 
I like what you are selling...I doubt Keltec would venture away from the folding ####, that's kinda their thing lol.
But I agree, make me a plastic ass FX9 type of PCC that is cheap as #### and runs and priced like a Sub2000, and I'm in....

Yeah well, if we're dreaming, let's make that non folding S2K just as slick and trim, lose the irons, full length top rail, mlok forend, and mostly aluminum instead of plastic... I'd pay double the current price, possibly more. I like the economy version plenty, though.

The S2K balances better than the FX9, and it's shorter too. By putting the magazine in the grip it moves the action (and center of mass) rearward a few inches.

Just buy one already! Based on what you said earlier I doubt you'd be disappointed. Note that they make the S2K Gen2 in both a G17 and a G19 mag version (as well as multimag). The S2K/G19 grip length is substantially shorter than an actual G19 grip (same as the S2K Gen3, AFAIK). I think most people can get all of their fingers on a G19 pistol grip, but I think most people cannot get all of their fingers on the S2K/G19 grip (their little finger might rest all or partly on the magazine). That's great if you have lots of G19 mags you want to use, or if you want your S2K to be as compact as possible; Not so great if you don't have G19 magazines, or prefer a full grip.

I'm thinking about getting a spare S2K Gen2 /G17 before they disappear. Maybe I should get a /G19 version too...
 
I’ve owned a JR Carbine and a Ruger PC Carbine, and now own a Kel Tec Sub2000 Gen 3.

Both the JR and Ruger were great rifles (though screws kept shaking loose on them sometimes even with some locktite). The winning feature of the Kel Tec is how it folds and fits in an easy to carry pack. I ALMOST bought the S&W, but after handling one in store beside the Kel Tec, I just didn’t like it. To each their own.
 
...I ALMOST bought the S&W, but after handling one in store beside the Kel Tec, I just didn’t like it. To each their own.

Fit and finish wise, the S&W FPC does feel nicer than the S2K, I don't think many would disagree. Whether it matters, and whether it is worth the additional cost, of course that is up to the individual. As it is, for me and my applications, better fit and finish is the only thing the FPC has in its favour over the S2K.

The FPC could have been so much better, I don't know why they made so many of the weird design choices that they did. Whatever design people they have assigned to their "let's copy popular KelTec firearms" unit, it is clearly not their Alpha team (look what happened with the M&P12). But maybe they moved some people around, the M&P22Mag looks promising.
 
Just did a bit of clicking, and the best price I see on the Gen 2 (Sub2000, black, G17 mag) is $675 at Tiger Arms (non site sponsor I think).
 
Dunno, sorry. But there's gotta be some way to get in there.

Reports say the Gen3 has an improved (aluminum) trigger and lighter trigger pull (but weaker reset), so maybe you won't want to anyway depending on what you're looking for.
 
Got out on the weekend to shoot this thing, I dunno, mixed feelings lol.
Ran through 200 rounds of mixed ammo, some factory, some reloads, no hiccups, works good.
Put some same plain AR sights on it I had laying around, got that zeroed, then put a TRS 25 with quick release riser and all co-witnessed and zeroed, at 50m it was hitting steady some 8" shoot n see targets, about as good as my eyes are these days, which is similar to what I can shoot with a 9mm pistol off a rest, so nothing to brag about there.
Trigger is dog####, not heavy, just all grit/grind on the take up, if I can figure out how to get the side off with that new spring collar set up on the tube I can see what's going on in there.
I understand the recoil complaints I read now, not recoil on the shoulder, but the cheek slap from the heavy blow back bolt, not punishing, definitely annoying, 4lb rifle with 2lbs of bolt I guess you can't avoid that lol.
So runs great, trigger still sucks, and it's kind of annoying to shoot, more sessions will be required to see if it stays or goes.
 
Works great, feels cheap, that sounds about right!

Yours is the Gen3 then, right? The trigger should smooth up over time, but your comments sound like par for the course. Seems like maybe they just put lighter springs in without changing anything else, and that's what happens - Less resistance means you feel the grit more. A well broken-in Gen2 trigger probably feels better to most people - Feels more like a long takeup striker-fired pistol trigger, which I think makes a lot of sense on a firearm like this. Once you figure out how to open it up, the moving parts will probably respond well to a good polishing.

Cheek slap on the recoil impulse, you're right that it's basic physics and there's no getting around it. Different ammunition might feel different, did you try any 147s? The cheek pad solution might help (some people just glue a strip of mouse pad on the top of the tube). Raising your optic and/or extending the LOP might help too. I found that using a very firm grip, pulling the rifle hard into my shoulder made enough difference without any other changes. But yeah, all things being equal, heavier rifles are always going to feel more comfortable to shoot, especially for longer sessions.
 
Works great, feels cheap, that sounds about right!

Yours is the Gen3 then, right? The trigger should smooth up over time, but your comments sound like par for the course. Seems like maybe they just put lighter springs in without changing anything else, and that's what happens - Less resistance means you feel the grit more. A well broken-in Gen2 trigger probably feels better to most people - Feels more like a long takeup striker-fired pistol trigger, which I think makes a lot of sense on a firearm like this. Once you figure out how to open it up, the moving parts will probably respond well to a good polishing.

Cheek slap on the recoil impulse, you're right that it's basic physics and there's no getting around it. Different ammunition might feel different, did you try any 147s? The cheek pad solution might help (some people just glue a strip of mouse pad on the top of the tube). Raising your optic and/or extending the LOP might help too. I found that using a very firm grip, pulling the rifle hard into my shoulder made enough difference without any other changes. But yeah, all things being equal, heavier rifles are always going to feel more comfortable to shoot, especially for longer sessions.
I'll try a higher dot mount, can absolutely do the mouse pad glue/tape cheek piece, haven't hit the 147's yet but have some to load, one of those guns I wouldn't spend another 5 cents on as it ain't worth it lol.
Cleaned it up today, bore is pretty rough, took way more time and effort then I was expecting. Even the initial clean I was wondering how many rounds they test fired, but now after cleaning twice and taking a good look, she's rough in there.
It is what it is, a cheaply slapped and screwed together light weight back pack/bug out mess.
At least it's reliable, I would not be a happy camper of it was a jamomatic on top of all the other short comings.
This is it though for my semi pistol cal carbine adventure, I'll have some fun with it, it does have that going for it, but I'd rather waste 9mm through a pistol.
 
Personally, I agree - If you don't love it as it comes from the factory, throwing a bucket of MCARBO on it won't change what it really is and what it's really good at. But some guys love modifying and accessorizing, and more power to them.

I'd wager that bore finishing probably varies a lot on these, depending on the condition of the tooling as it wears out. Obviously, it's not going to be a priority for QC for this model.

I'd try playing with the adjustable LOP if it's still uncomfortable. It's easy to change, before going to an extended basepad. I like a short gun for this application though, so I keep mine at the shortest LOP and adjust my stance.
 
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