22LR - Does Muzzle SD Even Matter??
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Leuchtkafer
Member
To put it succinctly, the barrel is the primary driver of precision. While a good barrel and good ammo are prerequisites for good results, there is a third factor, how well the ammo pairs with the barrel. If the ammo does not suit the barrel, good results will not follow, no matter how good that ammo is. None of this is revolutionary, all of which should be common knowledge by now.
I watched the video. It covers a number of things, including what's in the title.
The narrator is Kenneth Ey (Kenny) who says he's designed a .22LR barrel that performs best at long range, 200 yards. This is the DPG barrel used by his rifle building business. He says it's better than the barrels of other manufacturers. He did this by designing it to be "harmonically sound" and "harmonically dampened". He says it's less ammo picky than other barrels. It has rifling that gives the bullets that pass through it "a higher G1 BC profile".
With regard to the title of the video he notes that the shooting data he collected in the video supports the idea that ammo SD doesn't really matter when it comes to .22 rimfire accuracy. In other words, ammo SD doesn't guarantee what the results will be on target.
He recommends that shooters should use the approach taken by ammo testing facilities. He notes that they don't have chronographs recording MVs. They focus on the ammo results downrange and their repeatability.. This, not ammo SDs, should be what matters with ammo selection. In a brilliant epiphany he shares that "The downrange results is really what speaks for itself."
The discovery that chronograph results don't guarantee results, aside, Kenny says that his non-ammo picky barrels will save shooters from having to look for that one lot of ammo that shoots. With other barrels you "might not be able to find that special lot for a couple of years or what not." That's why he developed his barrel that can "shoot very well with anything you throw at it and compete at the top level."
Kenny cautions viewers that the popularity of 22 rimfire "brings out the negative aspects of manufacturing, marketing, shops who build rifles, and just false information that's put online." In a remark utterly immune to irony, he reminds us that "Everything's a marketing scheme." (With all that selling and scheming out there, it's a good thing we have Eagle Eye videos to keep us on the straight and narrow.)
The narrator is Kenneth Ey (Kenny) who says he's designed a .22LR barrel that performs best at long range, 200 yards. This is the DPG barrel used by his rifle building business. He says it's better than the barrels of other manufacturers. He did this by designing it to be "harmonically sound" and "harmonically dampened". He says it's less ammo picky than other barrels. It has rifling that gives the bullets that pass through it "a higher G1 BC profile".
With regard to the title of the video he notes that the shooting data he collected in the video supports the idea that ammo SD doesn't really matter when it comes to .22 rimfire accuracy. In other words, ammo SD doesn't guarantee what the results will be on target.
He recommends that shooters should use the approach taken by ammo testing facilities. He notes that they don't have chronographs recording MVs. They focus on the ammo results downrange and their repeatability.. This, not ammo SDs, should be what matters with ammo selection. In a brilliant epiphany he shares that "The downrange results is really what speaks for itself."
The discovery that chronograph results don't guarantee results, aside, Kenny says that his non-ammo picky barrels will save shooters from having to look for that one lot of ammo that shoots. With other barrels you "might not be able to find that special lot for a couple of years or what not." That's why he developed his barrel that can "shoot very well with anything you throw at it and compete at the top level."
Kenny cautions viewers that the popularity of 22 rimfire "brings out the negative aspects of manufacturing, marketing, shops who build rifles, and just false information that's put online." In a remark utterly immune to irony, he reminds us that "Everything's a marketing scheme." (With all that selling and scheming out there, it's a good thing we have Eagle Eye videos to keep us on the straight and narrow.)
Fortunately, Kenny gives us the three important things to know about rimfire rifle accuracy performance.
The number one thing is the barrel. A good barrel that's not ammo picky (like his DPG barrel, which is also harmonically sound) is very important. Also important, Kenny tells us, is that shooters should understand that fast twist barrels are not good for accuracy performance. He reveals that .22LR projectiles are not 100% lead. "There's imperfections in the lead, there's voids, there's other pieces of metal or other metals in there like arsenic that create an imbalance." (Note: .22LR match bullets are made of lead and antimony.)
The thing with fast twist barrels -- anything faster than 1:14 -- "when you spin it [the bullet] faster if there's a possibility of having a void or imbalance of projectile now you risk having that shot fly out there". More specifically, the problem is that there will be "a hell of a lot more flyers with these faster twist rate barrels." In fact, Kenny tells us, "I don't see any performance gain at 300 plus yards."
Kenny tells us in the video that he's had clients call him and ask about faster twist barrels. He says he tells them to call shops that promote them and ask for data to verify the claims of improved performance with faster twist barrels. Kenny says these shops can't or won't provide such information. He says "So sad to say guys that are spitting out this false narrative and sales pitch of a faster twist rate. They can't even back up their data". Parenthetically, I think he means that they can't back up their sales pitch with data.
(It's worth noting that there is no body of evidence accumulated that reliably shows that faster twist barrels have better accuracy performance at any distance than standard twist barrels. It must also be noted that there's no evidence that they are any worse. The problem is it is quite difficult to get reliable, repeatable evidence for long distance .22LR shooting.)
Kenny says the number two thing for rimfire accuracy performance is headspace. Next to the barrel in importance, headspace has the most influence in accuracy performance. That's why he doesn't recommend prefit barrels. He threads receivers like CZ 457's to accepted threaded barrels. An accurately set headspace will prevent problems. He says a difference of one one thousandth of an inch could cause a 22 rimfire to have "malfunctions in the feeding, ejection, and, obviously, accuracy." Headspace issues can cause a rifle to become ammo picky, forcing the shooter to "find the one lot that it likes".
The third most important thing for rimfire accuracy, Kenny reveals, is ignition. He says it's an "umbrella term" that "encompasses the lock time of the action, the firing pin, the firing pin spring and the basic headspace also." He says the firing pin spring should be changed out every case of ammo or at least every year. They are key for keeping ignition well maintained and consistent.
It's a good thing that Kenny is altruistic in sharing his wisdom and that he refrains from putting out any falsehoods or marketing schemes.
The number one thing is the barrel. A good barrel that's not ammo picky (like his DPG barrel, which is also harmonically sound) is very important. Also important, Kenny tells us, is that shooters should understand that fast twist barrels are not good for accuracy performance. He reveals that .22LR projectiles are not 100% lead. "There's imperfections in the lead, there's voids, there's other pieces of metal or other metals in there like arsenic that create an imbalance." (Note: .22LR match bullets are made of lead and antimony.)
The thing with fast twist barrels -- anything faster than 1:14 -- "when you spin it [the bullet] faster if there's a possibility of having a void or imbalance of projectile now you risk having that shot fly out there". More specifically, the problem is that there will be "a hell of a lot more flyers with these faster twist rate barrels." In fact, Kenny tells us, "I don't see any performance gain at 300 plus yards."
Kenny tells us in the video that he's had clients call him and ask about faster twist barrels. He says he tells them to call shops that promote them and ask for data to verify the claims of improved performance with faster twist barrels. Kenny says these shops can't or won't provide such information. He says "So sad to say guys that are spitting out this false narrative and sales pitch of a faster twist rate. They can't even back up their data". Parenthetically, I think he means that they can't back up their sales pitch with data.
(It's worth noting that there is no body of evidence accumulated that reliably shows that faster twist barrels have better accuracy performance at any distance than standard twist barrels. It must also be noted that there's no evidence that they are any worse. The problem is it is quite difficult to get reliable, repeatable evidence for long distance .22LR shooting.)
Kenny says the number two thing for rimfire accuracy performance is headspace. Next to the barrel in importance, headspace has the most influence in accuracy performance. That's why he doesn't recommend prefit barrels. He threads receivers like CZ 457's to accepted threaded barrels. An accurately set headspace will prevent problems. He says a difference of one one thousandth of an inch could cause a 22 rimfire to have "malfunctions in the feeding, ejection, and, obviously, accuracy." Headspace issues can cause a rifle to become ammo picky, forcing the shooter to "find the one lot that it likes".
The third most important thing for rimfire accuracy, Kenny reveals, is ignition. He says it's an "umbrella term" that "encompasses the lock time of the action, the firing pin, the firing pin spring and the basic headspace also." He says the firing pin spring should be changed out every case of ammo or at least every year. They are key for keeping ignition well maintained and consistent.
It's a good thing that Kenny is altruistic in sharing his wisdom and that he refrains from putting out any falsehoods or marketing schemes.
Firing pins may have to be changed every once in a while. But guys like Kenny don't have to be taken seriously let alone literally. He's selling his products and services, nothing more. His warnings about marketing schemes applies no less to himself than anyone else.
No one needs to buy his specially designed barrel, with it's special rifling and harmonic qualities that supposedly make them shoot any ammo. No one needs to check their .22LR match bullets for arsenic. No one will find that one one thousandth of an inch in headspace makes a difference in feeding, ejection (???) or accuracy.
As for SD mattering? Everyone who has chronographed good shooting ammos will have seen that it doesn't. This has been known for a long time.
Looks too me like he needs to learn how group measurements are properly taken!! He is entertaining and has built some accurate guns. Apparently shooting one ammo and just jumping into another brand doesn’t affect anything either. I wasn’t aware of this.
It's hard not to come to the conclusion that Kenny is full of it. He makes things up to suit his needs. Rather than having sound information, the Eagle Eye Shooting rimfire videos I've seen seem more of a sales pitch than anything else.
Below is a target showing two groups, the one on the right shot with a rifle that has his "special" non-picky barrel. As he shows viewers the results, he tells them that the group on the right, the one shot with his special barrel, is smaller than the one on the left. Calipers aren't needed for viewers to see that his claim is wrong, but he wanted to show that his barrel shot better than the other even when it didn't.
Leuchtkafer
Member
Knowledgable persons might glean some useful insights from Kenny's content, not necessarily from listening to him, but by observing what he does and drawing one's own conclusions. I would agree that perhaps he is not the best source of information for newer shooters.
For example, I took interest in his methods of fixing barrels to the action. He had a brief stint with threading actions, which he abandoned in favour of a thermal fit, which is machining the barrel tenon slightly oversize and heating the action while freezing the barrel so that when fitted, the contraction of the action combined with the expansion of the barrel result in a solid lockup. I don't favour either of these methods, as they run the risk of putting stresses into the barrel and distorting the chamber, which has the potential to negatively impact the precision of the build. I'm not going to do a study with statistically significant numbers of examples to demonstrate this, I'm just going to apply critical thinking and do what makes the most sense. In my opinion, the best way to fix a barrel to an action in an absolutely stress free manner is to "glue in" with green Loctite.
For example, I took interest in his methods of fixing barrels to the action. He had a brief stint with threading actions, which he abandoned in favour of a thermal fit, which is machining the barrel tenon slightly oversize and heating the action while freezing the barrel so that when fitted, the contraction of the action combined with the expansion of the barrel result in a solid lockup. I don't favour either of these methods, as they run the risk of putting stresses into the barrel and distorting the chamber, which has the potential to negatively impact the precision of the build. I'm not going to do a study with statistically significant numbers of examples to demonstrate this, I'm just going to apply critical thinking and do what makes the most sense. In my opinion, the best way to fix a barrel to an action in an absolutely stress free manner is to "glue in" with green Loctite.
Eagle Eye (Kenny) has a video showing the thermal fit method to attach barrels. His website, however, currently says barrels for the CZ 457 rifles he builds are threaded.
On a related note about barrels, readers may remember that the the video claims that the DPG barrel is special -- it's "harmonically sound" and "harmonically dampened" and has special rifling for better G1 BC. According to Kenny it will "shoot very well with anything you throw at it."
Nevertheless his website recommends lot testing "for best results" -- something that serious shooters understand and other .22LR barrel makers take for granted. No barrel is so special that it will actually make all match ammos shoot well.
See h ttps://www.dpgunworks.com/product-page/cz-457-custom-build
On a related note about barrels, readers may remember that the the video claims that the DPG barrel is special -- it's "harmonically sound" and "harmonically dampened" and has special rifling for better G1 BC. According to Kenny it will "shoot very well with anything you throw at it."
Nevertheless his website recommends lot testing "for best results" -- something that serious shooters understand and other .22LR barrel makers take for granted. No barrel is so special that it will actually make all match ammos shoot well.
See h ttps://www.dpgunworks.com/product-page/cz-457-custom-build
Kenny was trying to show that his DPG barreled rifle shot better than the RimX with the Shilen barrel and "lot tested" ammo.
Whatever the merits or shortcomings of either, what's more important is that no one should make any judgements or make a sales pitch (which is what Kenny is doing) based on a single group. That's just wrong because it's unreliable and misleading.
Matt and Dory over at CRPS bought one of Kenny's Custom CZ... It's temping but Lilja has come out with a 1" x 26" barrel for the 457
One day I'll sit my Garmin down range and see what SD's I'm getting from the SK LRM at the 100 yard target.
One day I'll sit my Garmin down range and see what SD's I'm getting from the SK LRM at the 100 yard target.
Leuchtkafer
Member
Interesting. Kenny's video showing the thermal fit is not even a year old. I seem to recall him stating in a video that he used to thread the actions but saw no real benefit to it and now just does the thermal fit. It is unclear why his website is not congruent with his videos. His claims about "harmonic dampening" come across as marketing malarky. What makes more sense logically is that he is using greater than 1 inch diameter barrels, which would be more rigid than their narrower counterparts. This would make the barrel have a lessor tendency to string vertical with a wider selection of ammunition, or, to be "less picky" as another way to put it.
I saw that video of Dory's new rifle, I like that chassis. I contacted MDT and was told they expect to release it for the 457 before the end of summer. I'll be waiting for it's release to do my PRS rifle build.
I saw that video of Dory's new rifle, I like that chassis. I contacted MDT and was told they expect to release it for the 457 before the end of summer. I'll be waiting for it's release to do my PRS rifle build.
Theres so much BS out there on what people actually buy and whats given to certain shooters. Everything with a grain of salt or choking on. Not everyone can go to the range for a week and test the upcoming stages to perfect them. Not taking away from highly skilled shooters but it does have big advantages. How about unnamed stages and everyone shows up green. Theyre still be cheating like there is now9YOU ALL KNOW WHAT IM TALKING BOUT) certain rules for some that dont apply to others. Anytime theres competition cheating will rear its ugly head. PS Im coming out with a 38" 1in 9 twist barrel prefit for every rimfire made. Its fabricated from a special alloy compound designed specifically for harmonic balancing too reduce vibration and make every 22 rimfire ammo more accurate!!!!! These barrels are only available thru my new company named BSBI and available in your custom chamberings. Presently Bull#### Barrels Incorporated has been completely overwhelmed by idiot orders believing anything!. As soon as we run out of our current stock of idiots we will accept new orders for our incredible barrels. Preorders welcome with a $5000 deposit. Get in early before the price increase>>>
It does seem to be a "my barrel is better than others" promotion - Not sure what distance he was shooting at - a couple of times "75 yards" then print over the screen a correction "95"... And then I heard "100 metres" a couple of times. Probably not that significant, and the rifle seems to shoot pretty gosh-darned well. I tapped out of the video before the end.. (also, a couple of times called it a "cee-zee" rifle and I heard at least one "cee-zed". None of that really matters, but if you've got the bucks and you're THAT concerned about accuracy, he seems to make a good barrel... I won't be buying one. My 10-22s are all good for minute of gopher inside of about 70 and that's good enough for me.
