Rimfire Muzzle Tuner Device? Worth it?

I'm not here to debate PC, tuning theories or "stopped muzzle". Everyone can do their research on them, roll up their sleeves and experiment with them all, then decide what path they want to walk, fair enough? OK.

The job of a muzzle device is pragmatic at it's core, that is to mitigate the oscillations at the muzzle so as not to add any more dispersion than is already inherent in the quality of the barrel plus the quality of the ammo. Thinking that barrel plus ammo = results is incomplete, for when a muzzle device is not used, then barrel + ammo - barrel/ammo compatibility = results. I already provided a very clear example of this.

Can the effect of muzzle oscillation be mitigated 100%? That would be a topic all on it's own. The premise of PC suggests that this is attainable, but only to a certain distance. "Stopped Muzzle" also suggests this, if it is indeed possible to perfectly stop the muzzle on most rifles. We'll set aside the quest of these Holy Grails for the purposes of this thread.

Outside of BR, as Jerry has pointed out, shooters are just looking for "better", or "good enough". This can be readily obtained without being fanatical about it, sure it's not the "best" setting obtained by shooting a whole case of ammunition in testing, but it's better than without the muzzle device and fit for the intended purpose. The benefit of the muzzle device is that more lots of ammunition will give shooters the performance required for their sport than trying to find a suitable lot without a muzzle device. Simple. This goes for BR too, it makes no sense to lot test without the muzzle device, because then you're not really testing the lot quality, per se. Necessitativly, the lot that gives the desired performance for you with a naked barrel will also be a quality lot, but was it actually the "best" lot available? You may well have rejected the best lot merely because it was incompatible with your naked barrel.

If there are any doubts towards how barrel/ammo compatibility affects the results on target, I suggest rather than argue, Jerry has already made a good point on this, go spend some time with centerfire reloading and load development. Your observations from that endeavour will greatly assist your understanding of the muzzle device. Walk the walk, don't just bicker senselessly and do nothing, I have no respect for that. I'm glad to see there are at least some people who do more walking than they do talking, hats off to you and best of luck in your efforts.
 
I think comparing centerfire rifles too rimfire just opens up another can of worms! They’re both firearms but completely different in soonh many ways I’m sure it doesn’t need explaining. We will always agree to disagree I’m quite sure! That’s the only constant haha
 
Longstud said:
I think comparing centerfire rifles too rimfire just opens up another can of worms! They’re both firearms but completely different in soonh many ways I’m sure it doesn’t need explaining. We will always agree to disagree I’m quite sure! That’s the only constant haha
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We are definitely disagreeing on this point. They are the same... location of primer notwithstanding. Internal and external ballistics work the same regardless of ignition method. If there is concern wrt to bullet lube, then lean on all the info from the cast bullet community (CF of course).. whether blackpowder or smokeless.

The only difference is we can control all parameters of Centerfire ammo and essentially, none with rimfire. All concepts for tuning are the same.

For me, there is no mystery to rimfire... I accept that the ammo sucks and will always be that way.

YMMV

Jerry
 
Mysticprecision said:
We are definitely disagreeing on this point. They are the same... location of primer notwithstanding. Internal and external ballistics work the same regardless of ignition method. If there is concern wrt to bullet lube, then lean on all the info from the cast bullet community (CF of course).. whether blackpowder or smokeless.

The only difference is we can control all parameters of Centerfire ammo and essentially, none with rimfire. All concepts for tuning are the same.

For me, there is no mystery to rimfire... I accept that the ammo sucks and will always be that way.

YMMV

Jerry
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So the pressure generated by a rimfire is on par with any centerfire rifle round? An apple and orange are both fruits but as different as rimfire and centerfire. We will disagree.
 
how does low chamber pressure change external ballistics?

Does low pressure not cause a barrel to vibrate?

how is sub sonic flight with a 40gr 22cal bullet different from a 450gr 45cal bullet?

By all means choose any narrative you prefer.

I have applied what I know and I see none of the 'issues' others keep trying to sort through

YMMV

Jerry
 
While the concepts of tuning are similar between rimfire and centerfire, a key difference between .22LR match ammo and good centerfire ammo is in the bullets themselves.

The former are soft lead and the latter are jacketed. Soft lead projectiles such as .22LR bullets and airgun pellets are difficult to manufacture so that they have nearly perfect balance or center of gravity. Jacketed centerfire bullets are more consistent in having more nearly perfect balance or center of gravity.

When Cg is not nearly perfect, bullets don't follow predictable trajectories. This helps explain why .22LR rounds have POI that often don't match their MVs. Furthermore, Cg imbalance can also cause a .22LR round to have a POI to the left or right of the POA. A tuner can help mitigate variation in POI due to MV variation but they can't "correct" center of gravity imbalances.

With .22LR the further the target the greater the problem of imbalance and trajectory irregularity and unpredictability. A tuner can't fix .22LR bullet problems. They don't have to with jacketed rounds.
 
Mysticprecision said:
how does low chamber pressure change external ballistics?

Does low pressure not cause a barrel to vibrate?

how is sub sonic flight with a 40gr 22cal bullet different from a 450gr 45cal bullet?

By all means choose any narrative you prefer.

I have applied what I know and I see none of the 'issues' others keep trying to sort through

YMMV

Jerry
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Well it’s probably because you’re just much smarter than anyone with a different opinion! You also claim that there’s no mystery too rimfire. You should write a book! I’ll buy a few, especially if you’d sign them.
 
The real pioneers have names like Whitworth, Pope, Gates, Enfield (or was it Metford?), Mauser, Ackley and many more. As I said, these topics have been explored for a very long time at great depths. I have just applied 'old' knowledge to new toys.... and surprise, surprise, their physics is the same as my physics.

When I look at the reports of shooting performance back in the late 1800's/early 1900's, they knew alot and did really well, even by todays standards.... and with just lead, paper and beeswax... and their Mk2 eyeballs.

Explore the past, and I bet you find alot of answers to todays questions.

Jerry
 
Coincidentally, I have just established a tune for a new lot of SK Rifle Match. I see this thread is still active and racking up views so what I am about to post is only meant to be helpful to people who are still trying to establish their own processes, not to convince any one who is happy with what they have been doing. Some of what I do contradicts some of what has been said. People are free to take what they like of what I say and ignore the rest.

I've had two consecutive days of dead calm wind. I made a 40 minute run on the lake last night and it was as flat as can be mile after mile. I shot with six flags. The vanes never turned and the tails only occassionally twitched at which time I held my fire. I shot 24 five shot groups moving the tuner 2 clicks per. Five of the 24 groups got a sixth round on the suspicion, born of experience, that those were likely not representative rounds,ie. potentially flyers giving no relevant data in regards to a tune.

This target was scanned and analyzed in TDS OnTarget and I recorded mean radius, group vertical and group center elevation. Then I identify the 50 percent of the settings that had the lowest MR, lowest vertical and consistent elevation avoiding either extreme. Being of the PC school as opposed to the stopped muzzle I have found these attributes to be sound metrics.

As usual several likely spots were identified and I shot nearly as many groups/settings again, this time moving by one with a generous window on either side of my candidate setting. Because conditions were so ideal I took a shot at a setting after looking at that target and shot for score before doing the second detailed analysis. The result was a 400 with 33Xs, an amazing outcome for a first card with a new lot. In this case I reshot for two flyers. These are rounds that are completely out of the group, both high. Of course in competition that is a 398 with 31Xs but its my game and I play it how I like it. It is notable that this is distinctly better than I have been doing with my last case of Lapua.

Statistically this is 40 of 42 rounds in a .485 inch group, a MR of .130. Of the 42, 33 of which were Xs, leaves 9 of which 2 were low and 7 high. None of the nine were wide of the composite group. The sdX is .028 greater than the sdY. Since a 10fps MV difference gives rise to a .070 inch elevation change one could say that the tune reduced the effective MV SD to 4fps. I bet if I had a chrony that is not what it would have told me.

I hope this helps someone who is trying to get a handle on this tuning thing.
PS. three nice lake trout.
 
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Great info... if the flyers still stay inside the target you intend to shoot at distance... BUY MORE OF THAT LOT

Because I have been burnt before... if you have more bricks, pull a box from a couple or three bricks... and just shoot 10 or 15 from each box. hopefully, the math stays the same.

If this still holds, BUY LOTS OF THIS BATCH OF AMMO as it will suit your needs and you may not see this for many other lots of ammo.

Enjoy... and congrats.

Jerry
 
Jerry from Mystic is telling it like it is.

When you become obsessed with accuracy, and you own more than one 22rf rifle, That's when you start "stockpiling" ammunition for each of them and mark the bricks to indicate which rifle they're to be used in

Twenty years ago I bought 100,000 rounds of Aguila 22rf ammunition two of my rifles shot extremely well. I checked yesterday and I'm down to 5 bricks. Next year, likely in the spring I'm going to have to look for more ammunition the one rifle I have remaining likes.

I won't be purchasing 100K and they certainly won't be priced at less than $20/brick.
 
bearhunter said:
Jerry from Mystic is telling it like it is.

When you become obsessed with accuracy, and you own more than one 22rf rifle, That's when you start "stockpiling" ammunition for each of them and mark the bricks to indicate which rifle they're to be used in

Twenty years ago I bought 100,000 rounds of Aguila 22rf ammunition two of my rifles shot extremely well. I checked yesterday and I'm down to 5 bricks. Next year, likely in the spring I'm going to have to look for more ammunition the one rifle I have remaining likes.

I won't be purchasing 100K and they certainly won't be priced at less than $20/brick.
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So how many lot numbers would 20 cases of ammo have? Were they all just one lot number?
 
Longstud said:
So how many lot numbers would 20 cases of ammo have? Were they all just one lot number?
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Yes, and 5000 per case, hence the figure 100k rounds

Using 20-20 hindsight, it was a good move. Mostly it was just luck. I contacted the supplier at the time and asked for that specific lot number.

He laughed, because it was unlikely to happen, mostly because when those lots are shipped, they're all shipped at the same time.

I got lucky in this case. He called me back and told me he had twenty cases or tenx500 bricks and asked how many I wanted.

He gave me a good price, plus free shipping.

Twenty cases aren't a full pallet and are quite small for most of their orders.

Most stores will order two hundred or more cases at a time, which is two pallets, depending on the size of the pallet.

Normally, instead of going directly to the supplier I would have gone back to the local shop I purchased them from and cleaned out their remaining stock of that lot number, if the owner allowed me to pick through what they had on hand.

Most shops don't store their stock in order of lot numbers, unless they only open one pallet at a time. That usually depends on the help behind the counter how it's brought out for display. Like most folks they will do whatever requires the least amount of thought or effort to get a mundane job done quickly and doesn't really require any degree of fussiness.
 
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Longstud said:
So how many lot numbers would 20 cases of ammo have? Were they all just one lot number?
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As bearhunter says, a case is 5000 rounds (ten bricks of 500 rounds each).

Generally speaking, the better the ammo, the smaller the lots.

With an inexpensive ammo like Aguila, it must be expected that lots will usually be quite large in size. By comparison, .22LR match ammo such as Eley Tenex or Lapua Midas will be much smaller. A lot of Tenex or Midas will typically be four to six cases in size. Some lots may be smaller.

Center X can be as small as only three cases in quantity but will usually be comprised of four to six cases. A single lot of X-Act may be expected to be up to four lots in size.

Of course, the smallness of a lot doesn't guarantee how well the ammo shoots. I had a lot of CX that was only three cases in size and it didn't shoot well in any rifle (poor ammo never shoots well in any rifle). The four different lots of X-Act I've tested were not especially good either, with at least one of them being a lot with a total of four cases produced.

Entry level .22LR match ammos such as SK will usually be larger than "better" grades. Expect larger lots of SK Standard Plus than SK Rifle Match.
Same thing for Eley and RWS entry level .22LR match ammos.
 
grauhanen said:
As bearhunter says, a case is 5000 rounds (ten bricks of 500 rounds each).

Generally speaking, the better the ammo, the smaller the lots.

With an inexpensive ammo like Aguila, it must be expected that lots will usually be quite large in size. By comparison, .22LR match ammo such as Eley Tenex or Lapua Midas will be much smaller. A lot of Tenex or Midas will typically be four to six cases in size. Some lots may be smaller.

Center X can be as small as only three cases in quantity but will usually be comprised of four to six cases. A single lot of X-Act may be expected to be up to four lots in size.

Of course, the smallness of a lot doesn't guarantee how well the ammo shoots. I had a lot of CX that was only three cases in size and it didn't shoot well in any rifle (poor ammo never shoots well in any rifle). The four different lots of X-Act I've tested were not especially good either, with at least one of them being a lot with a total of four cases produced.

Entry level .22LR match ammos such as SK will usually be larger than "better" grades. Expect larger lots of SK Standard Plus than SK Rifle Match.
Same thing for Eley and RWS entry level .22LR match ammos.
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Thanks for the responses . I’m quite aware of how many rounds are in a case and how many bricks in a case but was surprised 100,000 rounds could all be a single lot. I just don’t shoot bulk ammo of any kind. The number of cases in a lot is identified on the labels of most higher end ammo’s as I’m sure you’re all aware! I’ve never bought any that had a number higher than 6, so only 30,000 rounds in total.
 
Longstud said:
I’m quite aware of how many rounds are in a case and how many bricks in a case but was surprised 100,000 rounds could all be a single lot. I just don’t shoot bulk ammo of any kind. The number of cases in a lot is identified on the labels of most higher end ammo’s as I’m sure you’re all aware! I’ve never bought any that had a number higher than 6, so only 30,000 rounds in total.
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The information was included because less experienced shooters reading this thread may not always be aware of the size of a case or a brick.

In addition, the general reader may not be aware that, while more expensive ammo generally shoots better than the much less expensive varieties, even the better grades of ammo available do not perform consistently from one box to another, from one round to another within the lot. In other words the lots of top tier .22LR match ammo available to buyers in Canada are not uniformly consistent.

Entry level grades of .22LR match ammo, with their very large lot sizes, can be expected to have even more variation in performance within each lot. To put it another way, entry level match ammos will have consistently performing rounds within a box, but there will also be frequent inconsistently performing rounds, which in turn makes good results elusive.
 
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