Displaying antiques and non-restricted with inert ammo?

[serg777]

Perhaps, this question might belong in the Legal section or a general discussion forum, as it’s not just about antiques but rather about the definition of ammunition.

Since I reload most of the calibers I shoot, it's easy and cost-effective for me to make small sets of dummy rounds for my guns, primarily to safely check their function and troubleshoot. My dummy ammo obviously would be an empty casing (no powder, no primer) with a real bullet seated in, just like when reloading live ammo. I believe these types of dummy cartridges (or inert ammo?) more closely resemble real ammunition compared to aluminum factory-made dummy rounds, which makes them more effective for diagnosing cycling issues.

I just thought, one other thing, when displaying antiques (which is not illegal as long as they are unloaded) - it would add a bit more charm to spill a few of such dummy rounds beside it. Perhaps to demo load/unload process or so.

Antiques should be stored/displayed unloaded - that's clear.

The other well known quote from RCMP web page beaten to death: Ammunition cannot be displayed with, or accessible to, the firearms.

That's pretty clear too, and while it does not explicitly tell about antiques, I'm sure it applies to antiques too.

Then a doubt suddenly crossed my mind, making me think - is the dummy ammo I'm thinking of displaying along with the gun is really not a real ammo from legal prospective?

Here is the definition from a Criminal Code:
84 (1): ammunition means a cartridge containing a projectile designed to be discharged from a firearm and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, includes a caseless cartridge and a shot shell; (munitions)

So, it seems dummy rounds (inert ammo) made of real ammo components could be somewhat falling into this definition:
- "cartridge containing a projectile" - yes, the real projectile is seated into original casing, so the cartridge indeed contains projectile, nothing says it must also contain powder or primer
- "designed to be discharged from a firearm" - yes, even though it the cartridge currently cannot be fired, it is originally designed to be discharged from firearm.

I did see some inert ammo has holes drilled in casings, but not sure if that's the requirement to be excluded from ammo definition or just to give a visual clue of the inert ammo?

Thoughts?

 

[mooncoon]

a couple of thoughts on the subject; when I make up dummy rounds, I cross drill a hole in the body of the case so that it can be seen at a glance that it is not a loaded case containing powder. I also normally leave a primer in the cartridge because when cycled through a falling block action, the firing pin can hang up in an empty primer pocket.
relative to your quote from the criminal code definition; I think that caseless cartridge must refer to ammunition which does not include a metal or plastic cartridge case. I think that a cartridge case with a hole drilled through it would be fairly obvious that it was not intended nor capable of firing. I think that dummy cases with no cross hole in the cartridge case would be less obvious as a unloaded round

cheers mooncoon

 

[serg777]

a couple of thoughts on the subject; when I make up dummy rounds, I cross drill a hole in the body of the case so that it can be seen at a gltoance that it is not a loaded case containing powder. I also normally leave a primer in the cartridge because when cycled through a falling block action, the firing pin can hang up in an empty primer pocket.
relative to your quote from the criminal code definition; I think that caseless cartridge must refer to ammunition which does not include a metal or plastic cartridge case. I think that a cartridge case with a hole drilled through it would be fairly obvious that it was not intended nor capable of firing. I think that dummy cases with no cross hole in the cartridge case would be less obvious as a unloaded round

cheers mooncoon

I thought that too. Even painting the dummy cartridge to some weird color will add to the visuality as well. But I don't think it will technically eliminate the fact that the original casing still was initially designed to be fired along with projectile in it.

It's like you drill multiple holes in the barrel and receiver of SKS, which obviously would make it dysfunctional, but it would not legally dismiss its non-restricted firearm status for the purpose of the law.

While we have a set of guidelines of dewat firearm, I failed to find something similar for the ammo. It seems it remains ammo no matter what you do to it to make it non-firing, unless pull the bullet. As opposed to snap-caps, which have been designed to be not an ammunition.

Am I too crazy with these assumptions?

 

[mooncoon]

the caseless ammunition that I am referring to is made with a material that combusts along with the propellant. I think a cartridge that conspicuously has no propellant in it would be accepted as being within the law. Otherwise, a handfull of loose slugs and fired cases would be against the law

cheers mooncoon

 

[serg777]

the caseless ammunition that I am referring to is made with a material that combusts along with the propellant. I think a cartridge that conspicuously has no propellant in it would be accepted as being within the law. Otherwise, a handfull of loose slugs and fired cases would be against the law

cheers mooncoon

Here I'm rather talking about traditional cased ammo. Empty cases are not an ammo, because they don't have bullets. My point was that as soon as the case has bullet in it - it becomes the ammo as it seems defined in Criminal Code referred earlier.

Just to argue my own point, I see those keychains made of real casing and bullet sold online, and I suspect none of those sellers have been investigated for illegal trafficking of the ammo.

And I also remember the "Old Guns Canada" posted a picture of their display shelf with antique guns and box of ammo beside.

BUT, here is the kicker, right from DAOD 3002-5, Use of Firearms, Ammunitions and Explosives web page:

https://www.canada.ca/en/department...e-of-firearms-ammunitions-and-explosives.html

ammunition (munitions)
Ammunition means a device charged with explosives, propellants, pyrotechnics, initiating composition, or nuclear, biological or chemical material, for use in military operations, and includes a non-charged or inert replica of such a device.

Bingo!

Now, it gets even more interesting, as it appears snap caps are also ammo, because they look like an "inert replica" of the real ammo. I wonder how many gun owners and businesses brake the law.

 

[m1008]

Runkle of the Bailey had a video about a guy getting charged for having a snap cap in a cased rifle when travelling. “Why you shouldn’t even acknowledging you have guns when getting stopped by the cops” even if a gun case is visible.

The guy got off but still had to go to court. The punishment is the process with cops being ignorant your fu**ed

 

[m1008]

Doesn’t matter the validity of charges, you end up in court and having to retain a lawyer will put a severe financial hardship on you.

Unless your someone wealthy enough to have one on retainer

 

[Suther]

BUT, here is the kicker, right from DAOD 3002-5, Use of Firearms, Ammunitions and Explosives web page:

https://www.canada.ca/en/department...e-of-firearms-ammunitions-and-explosives.html

ammunition (munitions)
Ammunition means a device charged with explosives, propellants, pyrotechnics, initiating composition, or nuclear, biological or chemical material, for use in military operations, and includes a non-charged or inert replica of such a device.

Bingo!

Now, it gets even more interesting, as it appears snap caps are also ammo, because they look like an "inert replica" of the real ammo. I wonder how many gun owners and businesses brake the law.

I think missed this part:

Application: This is a directive that applies to employees of the Department of National Defence (DND employees) and an order that applies to officers and non-commissioned members of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF members).

Unless you're a CAF member or DND employee that does not apply to you.


The regulations on display say this:

Display of Non-Restricted Firearms​

8 An individual may display a non-restricted firearm only if it

• (a) is unloaded;
• (b) is rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device or is in a container, receptacle or room that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into; and
• (c) is not displayed with and is not readily accessible to ammunition that can be discharged from it.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-98-209/page-1.html#h-1019972

An inert cartridge cannot be discharged, so (c) would not apply. IMO you'd be well within the law to display dummy rounds. As long as there is no primer (or a used primer) and no powder you're not displaying ammo that can be discharged.


If you're like m1008 and are concerned about being dragged through court anyways, get the legal defense insurance that is supposed to cover exactly this sort of thing.

https://firearmlegaldefence.com/

 

[serg777]

I get it

• (c) is not displayed with and is not readily accessible to ammunition that can be discharged from it.

I know, we are talking here some hypothetical and unlikely situations to begin with. That's when anyhow LE would manage to observe the displayed guns together with the inert ammo inside the house However, unless you don't make it directly visible from the street, there might be some other scenarios, such as emergency (flood, fire, active crime such as break-in) when LE may enter the house without your presence or consent. May be a friend makes a selfie while visiting you and post a picture online (Indian wedding with guns in Surrey comes to mind). I don't think LE would be able to immediately conclude the ammo in question cannot be discharged in displayed guns.

I mean, it's only you who surely knows the displayed ammo cannot be discharged, especially the one with spent primer. Indeed, spent primer does not guarantee that the cartridge has been fired and will not fire again, as it might be a misfire, which often goes off with second attempt. In this case non-primed cartridge gives a better clue.

Obviously LE will not perform a test fire attempts or pull the bullets out for all the discovered ammo to determine its functionality on the spot. They might take your word though. They might.

 

[tiriaq]

I get it

• (c) is not displayed with and is not readily accessible to ammunition that can be discharged from it.

I know, we are talking here some hypothetical and unlikely situations to begin with. That's when anyhow LE would manage to observe the displayed guns together with the inert ammo inside the house However, unless you don't make it directly visible from the street, there might be some other scenarios, such as emergency (flood, fire, active crime such as break-in) when LE may enter the house without your presence or consent. May be a friend makes a selfie while visiting you and post a picture online (Indian wedding with guns in Surrey comes to mind). I don't think LE would be able to immediately conclude the ammo in question cannot be discharged in displayed guns.

I mean, it's only you who surely knows the displayed ammo cannot be discharged, especially the one with spent primer. Indeed, spent primer does not guarantee that the cartridge has been fired and will not fire again, as it might be a misfire, which often goes off with second attempt. In this case non-primed cartridge gives a better clue.

Obviously LE will not perform a test fire attempts or pull the bullets out for all the discovered ammo to determine its functionality on the spot. They might take your word though. They might.

Inert ammunition cannot be discharged.

 

[Suther]

By all means, its up to you to decide what level of CYA you should use. If its inert then you're technically legal, but if you want to limit the ability for someone to question the legality of it then you can modify the cases to make things more obvious - drilling holes in the case, not having a primer in at all, or even using dummy ammo like Snap Caps rather than a brass case and real bullet would all give you an additional level of protection against unwanted and unwarranted charges.

 

[4star60]

Bad idea.