Rechambering antiques?

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starw24

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Hi everyone, I’ve been getting supplies ready to use my antique coming soon, a colt 1892 double action in 41 long. I heard a story about a member modifying an antique caliber to an easier one to find / reload, in that case being 41- > 38 special.

Does anyone know the legality of this, and any issues / concerns with modifying a calibre? As far as I am aware if they are not modified to any of the written prohibited calibres then it should not be an issue and still be classified as antique. Any stories or experience with this would be appreciated. Thanks!
 
Others may jump in, but the only way antique handguns are antique is if they were manufactured prior to 1898 (tricky with some with longer production periods) and don't fire modern commercially available ammunition calibres. This usually means either a purely black powder load or one which was not carried forward into the smokeless era. Which is why a Colt SAA manufactured in 1882 is still "restricted" (now banned thanks to Sock Boy) if it was in .44-40. So, logically (or not) if you convert an antique gun into something which could fire modern commercially available ammunition (even if doing that would blow it up) I think you would find yourself in trouble.

BA
 
Legal - yes. Though 38sw is not, will you be able to prove it's not chambered in 38 sw?

Technically difficult - also yes.

If I recall the cylinder is long enough to accomodate 38sp (and I'm too tired to go into the vault just now to look) but you will need to reline the barrel and all chambers.

38sp is a higher pressure round with a correspondingly higher bolt thrust. You'd have to load it down to stay within the 41lc range... And if you are reloading anyway, just learn to reload 41lc, not _that_ hard.

I just checked the FRT and there are antique sub entries for the colt 1892 in 38sp so the story you heard is likely true. Consider how to prove that though as there are also entries for 38 sw and they are rrstricted or prohibited.
 
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boltaction said:
Others may jump in, but the only way antique handguns are antique is if they were manufactured prior to 1898 (tricky with some with longer production periods) and don't fire modern commercially available ammunition calibres. This usually means either a purely black powder load or one which was not carried forward into the smokeless era. Which is why a Colt SAA manufactured in 1882 is still "restricted" (now banned thanks to Sock Boy) if it was in .44-40. So, logically (or not) if you convert an antique gun into something which could fire modern commercially available ammunition (even if doing that would blow it up) I think you would find yourself in trouble.
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Close, but not quite. The centrefire handgun has to start out in a non exempt caliber to be antique. (refer to Webleys in 455 getting converted to 45acp and staying antique) It can be converted to a non exempt caliber and stay antique. I could list the non-exempt calibers but you'd benefit from reading the laws and regulations so here is a link.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-464/FullText.html

Suffice to say that 38sp is not an exempted caliber. 38sw is though so if converting you'd want to be careful. If at some point there's a reason for the lab to examine your converted gun... They might decide that it's chambered for 38sw if it fits (and 38sw will fit a 38sp chamber) so you need to start thinking how you will prove the gun is 38sp and and 38sw now.. . If you can't, your gun would instead be an unregistered restricted or prohibited depending on barrel length.

Btw, dating Colts is not hard with a Colt archives letter.
 
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Lots of good information and discussion here everyone, one of the best things I find about the antique community you guys are always willing to help out and discuss these questions, so thanks.

I agree with what Kotkotofeich is saying about the antique status, everything I’ve read says you need proof it was originally before 1898 and in an allowed calibre. The colt im getting is coming with the serial and paperwork that proves it is currently antique.

I’m not sure how I would prove the difference between the 38 special and s&w, anyone have any ideas for that? Is there a certain way you can get that in writing to be designed just for 38 special? For the actual modification, the source I had told me they swapped the cylinder and modified the barrel, they got colt parts from a website.

Lastly for the ammo used, would it be possible to use those lower power cowboy loads in 38 special, or is even that still too high pressure? I know s&b carries some. Cheers
 
I've considered this subject a fair bit. While I have a legal background, the following is not legal advice - just interpretation of the regulations and some accumulated knowledge.

Kotkotofeich is correct re the regs: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-464/FullText.html

A handgun is considered antique if it was:

- Manufactured prior to 1898 AND
- Is designed OR adapted to fire rimfire or centre fire cartridges OTHER than those listed in the regs.

So if it's from 1897 or prior and was originally chambered in a cartridge that is not listed, it is considered an antique. This also allows for conversion to other cartridges not listed in the regs.

You'll need proof of both calibre and pre-1897 manufacture. This is easier with some firearms than others. For example, all Webley MKII's are antique as they were only chambered in .455 Webley, and manufacture ceased in 1897 when they moved to the MKIII.

This now opens you up to possibilities that are only really limited by technical details and safety. You could legally convert your Colt 1892 from .41LC to .38SPL (assuming you use parts marked for .38SPL and the FRT lads don't decide that it's actually for .38S&W) and have it retain antique status and everything that goes with that - but is it technically safe to do so?

I've heard of or seen examples of people doing similar things - converting a Remington 1875 (all units produced prior to 1890) that was originally chambered in .44 Remington (an exempt cartridge) to .44SPL using a new production cylinder. I've heard of folks converting pre-1897 Colt SAA's from .41LC to .38SPL using new production cylinders and barrels. The main risk, as I understand it, is the potential for frames to stretch, as the cylinder is really the pressure bearing part.

There are other possibilities - taking an original Remington 1858 frame (which is the "antique" status firearm) and swapping in new production Uberti parts (barrel, cylinder, etc.) and using a cartridge conversion kit.

This also applies to other categories - it would be legally possible to have a pre-1898 Martini Henry action built up into a new rifle in .45-70, which is larger than the minimum bore diameter of 8.3 mm required by the regs to be an antique.

Questions remain - is it safe to do so from a technical standpoint, is it worth the hassle, can you find an original antique that you are willing to mess with?

A very fun armchair conversation - I will continue to take my .22 out for plinking, it is much cheaper.
 
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/threads/antique-firearm-status-determination-flowchart.508109/

My 2 cent advice is to not mess with it, leave it in 41 Colt and if your going to shoot it, do it at a legal range. Before you do though, take it to a legit gunsmith and have them go over the gun. Others will tell you it's the same as a non restricted in use & their not necessarily wrong. But dependent on province & your location within in it, you are looking at a litany of troubles if you come across the wrong LEO or CO.
Rechambering to a modern day cartridge with any antique takes value away in my books & could set yourself up for future problems...
 
The .41 Colt cannot be rechambered to .38Sp. Converting a .41 Colt to accept .38Sp cases would be a major undertaking, the .38 being smaller than the .41. Sleeved chamber and barrel? There are reports of cracked forcing cones in .41 barrels. Installing a liner when that part of the barrel is slender would be problematic. A liner might be a no go, a new barrel being necessary.
It would be expensive.
It would also destroy the antique value of the piece.
If the rules were to change - which could easily happen - you could wind up with an expensive devalued piece.
.38S&W is larger in diameter than .38Sp., would not chamber in a .38Sp chamber. Case diameters are .38Sp diameter .379, .38S&W .386.
Stay with the .41, reload for that.
 
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tiriaq said:
.38S&W is larger in diameter than .38Sp., would not chamber in a .38Sp chamber. Case diameters are .38Sp diameter .379, .38S&W .386.
Stay with the .41, reload for that.
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That is the data that gets passed around (cip I believe), but if you take a good sample (I won't say any but I haven't encountered them yet) factory chambered 38sp revolver and try to chamber 38sw - it will go.

You'd have to chamber your 38sp very carefully and be prepared to prove it.
 
No doubt depends on tolerances when originally manufactured. A lot of surplus S&W .38-200 revolvers got rechambered to .38Sp to make them more saleable. Fired .38Sp cases bulge in the remains of the .38S&W chamber.
 
I was rereading the conversation I had about the conversion, the guy said he used a 38 blank barrel along with a new 38 cal colt cylinder to swap the calibre. Not impossible but definitely a lot of handiwork.

I am hearing the feedback about devaluing the piece though, that is a point I hadn’t taken in until now. The one I am purchasing was a fair bit below market value and has a corroded barrel which is why I thought it might be a good project gun. It is still shootable in 41 though so I may keep it that way and learn to reload for it.

Thanks again everyone for chiming in, it’s good to hear a variety of opinions from people with different experience. All the best!
 
Making a new barrel is a straightforward lathe exercise, when there are no underlugs, etc.
I was not aware that new made .38 cylinders were available for these revolvers. An original cylinder would likely be .38LC, and that would be a no go.
 
tiriaq said:
No doubt depends on tolerances when originally manufactured. A lot of surplus S&W .38-200 revolvers got rechambered to .38Sp to make them more saleable. Fired .38Sp cases bulge in the remains of the .38S&W chamber.
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I have a SW airweight on the bench just now. Chambered/marked 38 special. I'm able to chamber 38sw (old dominion) in it. Doubt anyone reamed it out to take larger 38sw cartridges, more likely the manufacturing tolerances, yes. And I have yet to find a 38sp gun that won't take 38sw so that over sizing was prevalent? So if _remaking_ an antique to take 38sp you'd need to be extra careful to make 38sw not fit...

My thinking about reaming to 38sp was that if I had to, I'd not ream the cylinder all the way through, leaving the visible step at the cartridge throat and that should be proof enough? Would depend on the lab and that's more risk than I'm willing to take unless I absolutely had to (and I take more of them than many here) I'd rather just reload 41colt.

If I were to find an orphan antique frame that was originally in 41, I suppose I would try it just to see what the lab would say (but I charge myself very little for work :p)
 
I often wonder the ethical decision to do such things as well, mind if its your property do as you please. At some point if it surfaces in the light of day that people are circumventing handgun laws, especially amidst a handgun freeze, what that will do to antique ownership laws, concerns me. Loading for 41LC is so easy, and the components are out there.
 
KotKotofeich said:
I have a SW airweight on the bench just now. Chambered/marked 38 special. I'm able to chamber 38sw (old dominion) in it. Doubt anyone reamed it out to take larger 38sw cartridges, more likely the manufacturing tolerances, yes. And I have yet to find a 38sp gun that won't take 38sw so that over sizing was prevalent? So if _remaking_ an antique to take 38sp you'd need to be extra careful to make 38sw not fit...

My thinking about reaming to 38sp was that if I had to, I'd not ream the cylinder all the way through, leaving the visible step at the cartridge throat and that should be proof enough? Would depend on the lab and that's more risk than I'm willing to take unless I absolutely had to (and I take more of them than many here) I'd rather just reload 41colt.

If I were to find an orphan antique frame that was originally in 41, I suppose I would try it just to see what the lab would say (but I charge myself very little for work :p)
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I wonder if it is the tolerances in chamber reaming or in cartridge manufacture?

Personally, I dislike the concept of permanently altering an antique for a momentary convenience.
 
Looking at all the replies especially those with trying to circumvent antique laws I doubt I would end up trying this, I wouldn’t want to give any more reason to people restricting rules on the ownership of these beautiful pieces.

I thought since the colt I’m purchasing is in a “low” quality and cheaper it would be a good base for a project gun, but devaluing the piece and difficulty in proving it is not 38 s&w sounds like good enough reason not to mess with it. Either way the thought exercise was fun to explore on rechambering, good to hear from the pros.

For the conversion parts I found the website was gun parts corp searching colt 1892, I believe that’s where the cylinder would be from. Most of their parts are out of stock but you can request a part individually.

In the meantime I’ll keep looking into 41 LC reloading, if anyone can point me to the cheapest single stage press and setup I would appreciate it !
 
Any 38 special revolver will be able to chamber 38 colt, because 38 colt is the parent case for 38 special.

And any antique chambered in 38 colt loses its antique status exemption
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