drawbacks of titanium?

manbearpig

manbearpig

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ive been looking at the titanium rifles lately, and im wondering what the trade-off might be for the reduced weight.

much of my camping gear is titanium, and i notice a lot of spalling especially around edges as they brush up against steel utensils and tools in my pack.

do gun manufacturers use a completely different alloy? have the addressed the spalling problems some other way? are there some potential fragility/durability issues with titanium?

the lighter weight definitely appeals to me -- but not if it sacrifices durability.
 
Titanium isnt as strong as steel. Its weight to strength ratio is high, but a part made from titanium and the same part made of high quality steel, the steel is stronger, the titanium is lighter in weight. The question is how much weight are you willing to give up for strength, or how much strength you really need to begin with.
 
weight saving are only ood to a point where your accuracy begin going down. I actually ballast some rifles to make recoil manageale and improve accuracy as well. Are you 90 years old?

Titanium is a real ##### to work with, its expensive and like mentioned above it is not strong enough. May as well go with aluminium bushings. I see no real advantage unless designer had some specific reason in mind other than just trying to be "exotic".
 
22lr said:
Are you 90 years old?
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no need to get sarcastic.

weight is weight. when you are carrying something for 100km, even a pound of weight reduction makes a noticeable difference whether you are Charles Atlas or a 70lb girlscout.

i am simply trying to determine if that weight reduction has drawbacks (other than the price tag).
 
I would be worried about increased recoil due to light weight, in a light recoiling cal. I'm sure it would be alright. Just remember, you're going to do most of your shooting at the bench, and one could really get to dislike a gun that punishes you.
 
Well - For you techies - titanium has a low modulus of elasticity, meaning its not as stiff as steel. Stiffness is a good thing ... Titanium gets (mis)used for a lot of applications these days - its the bling factor.
 
manbearpig said:
ive been looking at the titanium rifles lately, and im wondering what the trade-off might be for the reduced weight.

much of my camping gear is titanium, and i notice a lot of spalling especially around edges as they brush up against steel utensils and tools in my pack.

do gun manufacturers use a completely different alloy? have the addressed the spalling problems some other way? are there some potential fragility/durability issues with titanium?

the lighter weight definitely appeals to me -- but not if it sacrifices durability.
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Which Titanium rifles are you talking about? Because to be honest with you, I really don't think very many of them are actually made of Titanium.
 
Win/64 said:
Which Titanium rifles are you talking about? Because to be honest with you, I really don't think very many of them are actually made of Titanium.
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the Remmy 700 and Browning A-Bolt Tis. unless both companies are risking multi-million dollar lawsuits, im pretty sure if their websites say the receiver is titanium then its titanium :)
 
A titanium action is only 4 ounces or so lighter than a steel one. Most of the weight savings are due to lighter barrel contour (pencil barrels) and the aftermarket stock.

FWIW if you bought a 700 Mountain LSS, or even a SPS SS 7mm-08 and put a thin barrel on it and an edge stock, it'd weigh less than a Ti and would cost about the same after selling your factory barrel and stock, definitely less than the current Rem 700 Alaskan Ti (at $1800).
 
I have never heard of titanium being weaker than steel before. What is the yield strength of these two metals? I am too lazy to go and dig out my old textbooks.

My understanding of titanium is that it is harder and stronger than steel. Along with a resistance to corrosion. Its major draw back can be that it is a poor transmitter of heat.

OK so since the original post I dug up a text book. yes I know im a nerd.

The strongest CS i could find was ASTM A514 which is quenched and tempered. In all likelyhood this would be too brittle but for comparison purposes:
110KSI UTS and 100KSI yield
Compared to Titanium:
130KSI UTS and 120KSI Yield

These numbers were cited from "mechanics of materials" Beer & Johnston second edition
 
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In the pipe said:
I have never heard of titanium being weaker than steel before. What is the yield strength of these two metals? I am too lazy to go and dig out my old textbooks.

My understanding of titanium is that it is harder and stronger than steel. Along with a resistance to corrosion. Its major draw back can be that it is a poor transmitter of heat.
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titanium-size.jpg


http://swordforum.com/metallurgy/titanium.html
 
But then are they making the parts out of pure titanium? Titanium is used in a lot of things but a lot of that is as a part of the mix-or as an alloy. That said it would depend on whether the other material as part of the alloy is adding strength or detracting. The percentage of the mix of alloys is changed to add strength or lightness but usually at an assessed risk evaluation. Look at cutting tools for example. High speed steel is common but there are many different types of High Speed Steel and that can have Boron or Ti mixed in as well. Best to find out if you are talking about pure Ti or what kind of a mix. Like the Mcdonalds ads that say their patties are pure beef, in advertising speak all that means is that whatever small amount of beef is in the patty is real beef and does not say how much cereal filler has been added. I wonder if they will actually give you the percentage of titanium used in these parts if asked. Interesting question MBP.
 
manbearpig said:
i am simply trying to determine if that weight reduction has drawbacks (other than the price tag).
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Not especially. The manufacturer will have accounted for the different material properties and altered the cross-section of whatever to make it as strong as the steel original.

The only downside: Titanium does gall more easily than steel. So a titanium slide on a titanium frame on a pistol might not work that well, and titanium lugs on a bolt-action rifle... I'd want to keep them well lubed, but they should work fine if properly maintained.
 
I never said Ti was weaker than steel... it has a lower modulus of elasticity. It has a fairly high yield strength, comparable to some grades of steel.
Take two identical diving boards made of metal, one Ti one in gun-grade steel. They will both support the same weight before they fail, but the Ti one will have deflected roughly twice as much as the steel one.
So an action/barrel made of Ti would whip substantially more than steel, if made to the same dimensions.
 
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Scarecrow said:
titanium-size.jpg


http://swordforum.com/metallurgy/titanium.html
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So since the equation for stress due bending is Sigma = Mc/I
and
I=1/3 XY^3, c=(1/2)Y for the Ti case &
I=1/3(.5X)(.5Y)^3, c=1/4X for the Steel case

As stated above M is equal in both cases

Solving for M in both cases and setting them equal to each other

(XY^2 SigmaTi)/3 = (XY^2 Sigma steel)/12
4SigmaTi = Sigma steel

So you are telling me that Titanium is a quarter the tensile strength of steel?
 
In the pipe said:
So since the equation for stress due bending is Sigma = Mc/I
and
I=1/3 XY^3, c=(1/2)Y for the Ti case &
I=1/3(.5X)(.5Y)^3, c=1/4X for the Steel case

As stated above M is equal in both cases

Solving for M in both cases and setting them equal to each other

(XY^2 SigmaTi)/3 = (XY^2 Sigma steel)/12
4SigmaTi = Sigma steel

So you are telling me that Titanium is a quarter the tensile strength of steel?
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that is exactly what I was thinking but you beat me to it. :dancingbanana:
 
Sorry In the Pipe, but you if you want to compare the properties of two identical parts made of steel and titanium you want to make sure they both have the same dimensions. Therefore, the second moment of inertia (I), which depends only on dimensions, of both materials must be equal. The key properties that differentiate two materials are their modulus of elasticity, ultimate tensile strength and hardness.

The modulus of elasticity is simply how much pressure is needed to permanently deform the material. The ultimate tensile strength is the pressure needed to fracture the material in tension and the hardness is self explanatory. There are different hardness tests so it’s important to compare material using the same test.

Now if we take typical steel, let’s say 1018 cold rolled steel (low grade stuff) it has a modulus of elasticity of 200 GPa, ultimate tensile strength of 440 MPa and a Brinell hardness index of 126. Now compare this with pure titanium which has a modulus of elasticity of 116 GPa, an ultimate tensile strength of 220 MPa and a Brinell Hardness index of 70. Also it is important to know that steel is about 40% more dense then titanium. (These values are taken from www.matweb.com).

So yes, typical steel has better structural properties then pure titanium. Anyways, there’s so many titanium alloys and steel alloys out there that you can still not generalize. Who knows what Remington is using in their rifles.
 
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