Almost nothing left in a 9mm Rifle

OkayShooter said:
There are 1000s of manual actions that are chambered in rimless cartages. That feed perfect.
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This is correct. It's not the rimless cases that are the problem. Rifle cartridges are long and slender, which makes them easy to feed. Pistol cartridges are shorter and fatter, which makes feeding them properly much more difficult.

In general, you want the cartridge to be controlled by the mag feed lips until the bullet is in or very close to the rear of the chamber. This minimizes the chances of a round not going into the chamber properly. Achieving this with pistol cartridges requires the mag be very close to the chamber, with short feed ramps. For whatever reason, not many manual action PCC's have been made this way and the bolt action conversions that have been made seem to always place the mag well away from the chamber, leading to the various feeding problems mentioned.


Mark
 
Time for a short, stout, mag-fed pump action 9mm....but more realistically...

When I see a Savage FV-SR bolt action with that short/heavy barrel, I imagine it in 9mm every time... Savage=get on it, be the first and keep it $600 ish.
 
OkayShooter said:
There are 1000s of manual actions that are chambered in rimless cartages. That feed perfect.
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nah, theres a bunch that feed rimless RIFLE cartridges, but as you later describe your experiences of why, theres precious few in rimless pistol cartridges, which is whats being discussed here.

9mm isn’t inherently less applicable than 45 acp to a manual action… they both kinda suck equally.


This is probably a good opportunity for someone with additive manufacturing experience to prototype out, but with a press brake it wouldn’t be too fun.
 
UpperCanadaRebellion said:
nah, theres a bunch that feed rimless RIFLE cartridges, but as you later describe your experiences of why, theres precious few in rimless pistol cartridges, which is whats being discussed here.

9mm isn’t inherently less applicable than 45 acp to a manual action… they both kinda suck equally.


This is probably a good opportunity for someone with additive manufacturing experience to prototype out, but with a press brake it wouldn’t be too fun.
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Trust me I got a couple "custom" rifles in pistol calibers.

9mm was more difficult to feed and extract, than the same gun in 45ACP. I actually gave up trying to make it mag fed.

Doubt you'll see many companies fill a neish market. If they do, will be basic single shots.
 
>Trust me I got a couple "custom" rifles in pistol calibers.

Im not trying to be mean here, you can do something badly a lot of times, and still not be an expert.

>9mm was more difficult to feed and extract, than the same gun in 45ACP. I actually gave up trying to make it mag fed.

Yes, the magazine is the issue, as was my point, and why additive manufacturing prototyping will be more apt to splve it than handfitting mags with a press brake. You seem to be looking for conflict, for little reason. I don’t want to engage in that.

>Doubt you'll see many companies fill a neish(sic) market. If they do, will be basic single shots.

Canada of today is not what anyone should describe as a niche market, its too small. 😞 This topic (unbanned 9mm rifles) market in particular is almost solely home-builds and tinkerers at this point in time.
 
UpperCanadaRebellion said:
nah, theres a bunch that feed rimless RIFLE cartridges, but as you later describe your experiences of why, theres precious few in rimless pistol cartridges, which is whats being discussed here.
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Yeah. As long as you just ignore all the pistol caliber carbines like the Ruger PCC, TNW ASR, 9mm AR15s, etc etc etc

Also WSM and WSSM cartridges...

Unless you think its somehow EASIER to design a reliable semi auto than a reliable manual action???

Canada of today is not what anyone should describe as a niche market, its too small.
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It's too small to be a niche market? Do you know what niche even means? Canada has more gun owners than most countries. 2+million potential customers is not a small number.
 
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UpperCanadaRebellion said:
>Trust me I got a couple "custom" rifles in pistol calibers.

Im not trying to be mean here, you can do something badly a lot of times, and still not be an expert.

>9mm was more difficult to feed and extract, than the same gun in 45ACP. I actually gave up trying to make it mag fed.

Yes, the magazine is the issue, as was my point, and why additive manufacturing prototyping will be more apt to splve it than handfitting mags with a press brake. You seem to be looking for conflict, for little reason. I don’t want to engage in that.

>Doubt you'll see many companies fill a neish(sic) market. If they do, will be basic single shots.

Canada of today is not what anyone should describe as a niche market, its too small. 😞 This topic (unbanned 9mm rifles) market in particular is almost solely home-builds and tinkerers at this point in time.
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Not trying to be an expert. Just ran into issues, and sharing those issues. Would be too much for companies to make a ground up pistol bolt action for a small market. I mean look at the cost of that lever 9mm, over 2k. That single shot bolt 9mm is over 700$

The 9mm Lee was middle finger to the gov. Cost couple hundred dollars.

Only other 9mm bolt rifle I've seen was a Armscor TCM 22 converted to 9mm. But those guns are discontinued. Yes a dedicated short purpose built action.

The same magazine adapter, both using 1911 magazines 1 in 9mm and 1 in 45 acp. Only difference, is the barrel. 9mm was a PITA to feed, while less issues with the bigger 45acp.

I agree better calibers out there. Niche as in well they're banning semi auto and got a bunch of ammo from guns I cannot use, make a gun so I can run that ammo.

Its like asking a company to make a bolt 30 carbine, so i can use the 400rds I have.
 
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OkayShooter said:
Not trying to be an expert. Just ran into issues, and sharing those issues. Would be too much for companies to make a ground up pistol bolt action for a small market. I mean look at the cost of that lever 9mm, over 2k. That single shot bolt 9mm is over 700$

The 9mm Lee was middle finger to the gov. Cost couple hundred dollars.

Only other 9mm bolt rifle I've seen was a Armscor TCM 22 converted to 9mm. But those guns are discontinued. Yes a dedicated short purpose built action.

The same magazine adapter, both using 1911 magazines 1 in 9mm and 1 in 45 acp. Only difference, is the barrel. 9mm was a PITA to feed, while less issues with the bigger 45acp.

I agree better calibers out there. Niche aa in well they're banning semi auto and got a bunch of ammo from guns I cannot use, make a gun so I can run that ammo.
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I have troubles believing they can bring things like the Crypto and the BCL Bison to market but can't do a bolt or pump action 9mm for a reasonable price (not $500, but sub-1k perhaps?)

Those guns you mention are niche guns - the 9mm lever is made by a company who makes $2k+(usd) AR15s, and the Stowaway is a light weight survival rifle. Not exactly a good comparison to what people are asking for IMO.
 
Suther said:
Yeah. As long as you just ignore all the pistol caliber carbines like the Ruger PCC, TNW ASR, 9mm AR15s, etc etc etc

Also WSM and WSSM cartridges...

Unless you think its somehow EASIER to design a reliable semi auto than a reliable manual action???



It's too small to be a niche market? Do you know what niche even means? Canada has more gun owners than most countries. 2+million potential customers is not a small number.
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I ignored the banned guns for obvious reasons. Furthermore, of you had actually read along, we're discussing manual actions


Yes, it is easier to design a semiauto for a 9mm or 45 acp pistol caliber rifle… Manual actions dont benefit from reliable cycling from recoil and springs. They use unreliable people instead.


Wsm wssm arent pistol cartridges. Once again, discussed already as to why those are much easier.


2 million people potentially buying guns. But not enough buying these guns to out rank a small us state. The definition of niche
 
In 2016 I had 2 concept rifles that were designed for us for sale in Canada one of them was this. However from original projected for sale to customer price of MAX $750 Canadian the company that supposed to make them jumped to obscene price levels. My guess was that they showed it to someone else in Canada and that caused sudden price increase. I ditched the project since could no longer trust designer intention. Second project that was finalized but never produced was bolt action 9mm and 7.62x25 rifle that used TT33 magazines. This project was stoped when COVID came around
 

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corwin-arms said:
In 2016 I had 2 concept rifles that were designed for us for sale in Canada one of them was this. However from original projected for sale to customer price of MAX $750 Canadian the company that supposed to make them jumped to obscene price levels. My guess was that they showed it to someone else in Canada and that caused sudden price increase. I ditched the project since could no longer trust designer intention. Second project that was finalized but never produced was bolt action 9mm and 7.62x25 rifle that used TT33 magazines. This project was stoped when COVID came around
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Thanks for making the attempts.
 
corwin-arms said:
In 2016 I had 2 concept rifles that were designed for us for sale in Canada one of them was this. However from original projected for sale to customer price of MAX $750 Canadian the company that supposed to make them jumped to obscene price levels. My guess was that they showed it to someone else in Canada and that caused sudden price increase. I ditched the project since could no longer trust designer intention. Second project that was finalized but never produced was bolt action 9mm and 7.62x25 rifle that used TT33 magazines. This project was stoped when COVID came around
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Rcmp: ar15 variant. X25 variant is an ak47 for some reason.



Thanks for trying though
 
UpperCanadaRebellion said:
I see, youre the guy buying turkish shotguns…


Explains a lot.
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Also Euro 22s. Wasn't one of the "straight pull manual action Ar-ish rifles" spring-assist as well? Renegade or the other one, I forget which? One was all manual, one was spring assisted?

9mm is longer than 22lr, yet there's a million options for manual action 22s...
 
UpperCanadaRebellion said:
And it would have used cz75 mags too? Shame it never made it to market
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I blame its failure for not making to Canada at $750 per gun on whoever in Canada gave false hopes of grand high price to company that was designing the rifle for us. Originally we were to outsource production components and have final assembly at their shop in Czech Rep, but they after talking with someone in Canada at the last moment changed the agreement before signing it to have them made exclusively in their shop. Wasted 15 months with this guys trying to put this project together and ended up with $15000 worth of parts that were ready to go into them that were only partly disposable afterwords
 
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Bolt action for 9mm/7.62x25 can still be a go since I own the design. I would only ditch 7.62x25 option and Tok33 mags since they are no longer good choice. However incurrent economic situation I think I will never dear to go ahead with it nor even think about it
 
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