Is sorting ammo economically sound idea?

GPSMapNut

GPSMapNut

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For starters, it's simply an old fart's opinion based on limited information gathered by that fart. It's an opinion based only on 2 brands and statistically small sample. To small for some. Large enough for me to set the course.
Let's start with pricing.
I can get:
Eley Match (good ammo) for 26 a box
Eley Club (Eley's rejects) for $13 a box
CCI sv (about as decent as CCI is capable of making) for less than $5 a box.
I've checked the weight and rim thickness of 50 Eleys from two kinds and 150 of CCI sv.
Using Eley Match as a benchmark, CCIs were bad but Eley rejects were complete ####. Only something by Winchester ( I actually measured 5 types of cheap ammo) was worse than Eley rejects.
My first and last impression; Eley does in fact sort what they produce. Not necessarily by weight or rim thickness but the effects are the same. Extremes are sold at a discount.
Now, let's go to CCI sv vs Eley Match.
To get CCI sv to be statistically, by weight and rim thickness, significantly better, I had to discard close to 50% of CCIs.!
Well, if I was to discard the 50% that didn't make the cut, a box would cost me close to $10 a box.
Final thoughts and conclusions;
I'm confident that the sorted CCIs will perform better for less than Eley's rejects.I can only hope that they will come close to top shelf amo. Maybe not better but close.
Sorting? I have more time than money so, why not?
 
Even if you sort it all. There is no guarantee it will shoot well. There is a reason why it is cheaper.

If you want to shoot rimfire accurately. You either gotta pay for quality ammo, or accept acceptable accuracy for that ammo.

Like Im not expecting Eley sport to shoot 1inch at 100. Or CCI to perform better than Eley rejects. You forgot about CCI green tag.
 
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GPSMapNut said:
I can get:
Eley Match (good ammo) for 26 a box
Eley Club (Eley's rejects) for $13 a box ...
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GPSMapNut said:
My first and last impression; Eley does in fact sort what they produce. Not necessarily by weight or rim thickness but the effects are the same. Extremes are sold at a discount.
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Can you explain what you mean by "Eley's rejects"? You are telling readers that Eley Club is product that didn't make the grade to be Eley Match?
 
Because sorting goes Tenex, Match, Teams.

Club and Sport are not rejects of Teams or Match. Club is slightly better than Sport. Club is exactly what it means, Club level, shooting.
 
grauhanen said:
Can you explain what you mean by "Eley's rejects"? You are telling readers that Eley Club is product that didn't make the grade to be Eley Match?
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To the best of my knowledge, in particular based on the posts of resident expert and part of other sources none of which I can reliably verify but accept due to the consistency and lack of contrary reports, to simplify;
Eley strives to make all their ammo to Tenex standards. Every production lot / batch is tested. Due to the complexity of the process, not every run makes the cut. The further from Tenex standard, the lower the batch is rated.
It's not that hard to sort on yhe component level. It's hard to sort the final product. Batch testing of preasures and velocities is about all that can be done. All in all;
The lower the final product is rated, the cheaper the box it get packaged in.
Personally, I suspect that that grading happens on several levels. I bet, that the lowest grade gets either discarded or sold under a different brand. In my world, something that does not meet target specifications (Tenex for Elay) is a reject.
 
OkayShooter said:
Because sorting goes Tenex, Match, Teams.

Club and Sport are not rejects of Teams or Match. Club is slightly better than Sport. Club is exactly what it means, Club level, shooting.
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So, you think that sport is using exactly the same cases, primers, powder and bullets as Tenex but are, simply, somehow made to lower standards? Same weight and shape, same case... Just not the same standard... Well, if it was the same, it would end up as Tenex. As a Tenex reject, it ended up as a Sport or Club...
 
GPSMapNut said:
So, you think that sport is using exactly the same cases, primers, powder and bullets as Tenex but are, simply, somehow made to lower standards? Same weight and shape, same case... Just not the same standard... Well, if it was the same, it would end up as Tenex. As a Tenex reject, it ended up as a Sport or Club...
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No.. is totally seperate ammo. If you reject tenex, it becomes match, and if that doesn't, it becomes teams.

Reject tenex doesn't become Sport.

Lets see some groups? I rather shoot then worry about trivial stuff. As I shot enough rimfire that you not turning CCI SV into match ammo.
 
I have read, can't remember where, that all of the "fancy" ammo makers sort (not sure how; optical comparator maybe; they have been using these to sort by size and colour for white beans since the 80's. Maybe by weight also. A lot of measuring/sorting is done with pneumatic equipment.

I found it interesting that most companies have different products with the same bullets and same velocities at different price points.

I have also read that if they have really good runs and production exceeds demand, they can divert some of the top drawer stuff into a lower tier to meet demand. Not sure if they do the opposite; the way some of the top stuff has been shooting this last while, I would not be surprised if the better stuff is not some times diluted with lesser stuff again, to meet demand. Maybe turn down the sensitivity on your sorting equipment (we are constantly adjusting optical comparator software to ensure precision at work to keep product in spec..
 
OkayShooter said:
No.. is totally seperate ammo. If you reject tenex, it becomes match, and if that doesn't, it becomes teams.

Reject tenex doesn't become Sport.

Lets see some groups? I rather shoot then worry about trivial stuff. As I shot enough rimfire that you not turning CCI SV into match ammo.
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OK, so let's assume that Sport is made separately to different standards than Tenex. I can't argue that one since it's outside of the scope of my writing. It's not relevant.
 
Let me get this straight.

1- You are measuring the thickness of the spent brass from 22 LR ammo?

2- You are measuring the outside of 22 LR ammo, pre firing, and expecting to judge the quality of the remaining bullets in that box to perform the same?

3- You are pulling the bullet from an unfired round and then repacking it after measurement?
 
formerfarmer said:
Let me get this straight.

1- You are measuring the thickness of the spent brass from 22 LR ammo?

2- You are measuring the outside of 22 LR ammo, pre firing, and expecting to judge the quality of the remaining bullets in that box to perform the same?

3- You are pulling the bullet from an unfired round and then repacking it after measurement?
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This guy only pulls the bullets. I found it interesting. I use to sort by weight , but I've given up.

 
formerfarmer said:
Let me get this straight.

1- You are measuring the thickness of the spent brass from 22 LR ammo?

2- You are measuring the outside of 22 LR ammo, pre firing, and expecting to judge the quality of the remaining bullets in that box to perform the same?

3- You are pulling the bullet from an unfired round and then repacking it after measurement?
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Nope, you got it crucked. Please ,read again and concentrate on the subject line
 
GPSMapNut said:
To the best of my knowledge, in particular based on the posts of resident expert and part of other sources none of which I can reliably verify but accept due to the consistency and lack of contrary reports, to simplify;
Eley strives to make all their ammo to Tenex standards. Every production lot / batch is tested. Due to the complexity of the process, not every run makes the cut. The further from Tenex standard, the lower the batch is rated.
It's not that hard to sort on yhe component level. It's hard to sort the final product. Batch testing of preasures and velocities is about all that can be done. All in all;
The lower the final product is rated, the cheaper the box it get packaged in.
Personally, I suspect that that grading happens on several levels. I bet, that the lowest grade gets either discarded or sold under a different brand. In my world, something that does not meet target specifications (Tenex for Elay) is a reject.
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While there's much room for a clearer explanation, you should be aware that Eley doesn't make all their ammo to Tenex standards, nor does it claim to. There are several different types of standard velocity Eley rifle ammo, only one of which is true "match" ammo. This is the line of ammo that includes Tenex, Match, and Team. Eley ammos such as

When Eley makes a production run in one of their several loading machines, they load the same casings, EPS flat-nose bullets, propellant and priming compound (each of which has itself been graded), into the loading machine. All in theory could be Tenex, the top tier variety, but the output is never all uniformly similar or equal. How the output is graded is a proprietary secret, but only some of the product becomes Tenex. Some becomes Match and the remainder Team.

When Eley produces Club and Sport it's an entirely different production run at a different time (perhaps on altogether different loading machines, too). An obvious difference is the use of round nose bullets. Eley grades the output by proprietary means into Club and Sport (and anything else that might be the same nominal MV with a RN bullet).

Other production runs produce other Eley ammo varieties, especially with different MVs and bullets.

It's the same way for Lapua standard rifle ammo. One Lapua production run produces X-Act, Midas +, and Center X. SK ammo is made in the same facilities as Lapua but on different loading machines. The SK output for standard rifle ammo is graded into Rifle Match, Standard Plus, Pistol Match, and Magazine.

The bottom line is that Eley Tenex/Match/Team varieties are very different from Eley Club or Sport.
 
grauhanen said:
While there's much room for a clearer explanation, you should be aware that Eley doesn't make all their ammo to Tenex standards, nor does it claim to. There are several different types of standard velocity Eley rifle ammo, only one of which is true "match" ammo. This is the line of ammo that includes Tenex, Match, and Team. Eley ammos such as

When Eley makes a production run in one of their several loading machines, they load the same casings, EPS flat-nose bullets, propellant and priming compound (each of which has itself been graded), into the loading machine. All in theory could be Tenex, the top tier variety, but the output is never all uniformly similar or equal. How the output is graded is a proprietary secret, but only some of the product becomes Tenex. Some becomes Match and the remainder Team.

When Eley produces Club and Sport it's an entirely different production run at a different time (perhaps on altogether different loading machines, too). An obvious difference is the use of round nose bullets. Eley grades the output by proprietary means into Club and Sport (and anything else that might be the same nominal MV with a RN bullet).

Other production runs produce other Eley ammo varieties, especially with different MVs and bullets.

It's the same way for Lapua standard rifle ammo. One Lapua production run produces X-Act, Midas +, and Center X. SK ammo is made in the same facilities as Lapua but on different loading machines. The SK output for standard rifle ammo is graded into Rifle Match, Standard Plus, Pistol Match, and Magazine.

The bottom line is that Eley Tenex/Match/Team varieties are very different from Eley Club or Sport.
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Thank you for more in depth clarification. In my eyes, the bottom line is that lower grades are what didn't make the higher grade. Whether Sport is a reject from Sport and Team is a rejects from Tenex is of low significance. Based on limited numbers, it looks to me that the lower grades are not discounted enough to justifying paying , still premium price, for these. Sure, you want top grade, pay for it. My real question is; does it make sense to pay extra for brand name rejects or is it better to spend some ,really not that much, time to find the best from lower brands?
When and if, I ever enter a serious competition, I will be shooting Midas+ or Tenex or something like that. Punching paper for personal fun, I'll be using sorted now grade and I will use the rejects from sorting for shooting cans.
 
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