Big bore dinosaur
CGN frequent flyer
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- NORT OF COW.TOWN.EH
My 300win mag ruger #1 likes RL16 and 110 ttsx . Flat shooting and hits hard
25-06 with Varmint bullets
- Thread starter Vanderdootch
- Start date
Does this experience from these guys count?
Remember a 6.5x55mm is under-loaded in factory ammo because of all the rifles from the late 1800's still in use. In modern rifles it can be safely loaded much faster and at higher pressures.
It takes what it takes to find a good shooting load in your rifle.
What I did in my rifle could very well be a waste of components in your rifle.
The only way is put in the time and effort…. It’ll take what it takes, there’s no microwavable solutions to good loads.
The results are often commensurate to the efforts put forth.
I like how this Aussie guy using a stock pre-WW1 Swedish Mauser with only iron sights in 6.5x55mm can hit a 24"x24" metal gong at 2500 yards during high winds!
Wonder how many .25-06's could pull that off even with scopes?
Maybe guys with real world experience could? LOL!
Wonder how many .25-06's could pull that off even with scopes?
Maybe guys with real world experience could? LOL!
I'm a big fan of 6.5x55, I have 3.
Vanderdootch
Member
- Location
- Flamborough
I agree. The solving of the rubicks cube is the fun part. And the trigger pulling of course.
I inquire because sometimes there is just an easy button for a given cartridge. Like 175SMK with 4064 in a .308. Or H4831 with a 130gr projectile in a .270.
Also, have you experience faster than normal copper fouling within the bore of the 25-06? It seems to be my experience with it in the minimal rounds I hav shot through it.
Vanderdootch
Member
- Location
- Flamborough
I have also been experiencing copper build up happening far more rapidly than I am accustomed to with my other calibres. I do know this barrel has seen quite few rounds over its lifespan, but I have been able to remove all the copper from the barrel only to have it severely fouled again after only 10-15 rounds.
That's from thinner jackets, shallower rifling, and higher pressures/velocities combined.
Let me give you an extreme example and a bit of history on the 25-06. There will likely be a few anomalies because of technological advances over the 55+ years I've shot this cartridge through a half dozen rifles.
I've used H4831 almost exclusively in my 25-06 cartridges from my very first rifle, a Winchester Mod 70, topped with a Bausch and Lomb, fixed 10X, with AO, starting in 1967.
The cartridge was still considered to be a wildcat, but was popular.
Parker Ackly chambered the barrel and fitted it to the action he had in his shop, did his magic to the trigger, then sent it to a local unknown stockmaker, which I suspect was actually an apprentice/student smith at the local college. Back then, stockmaking and fitting were an integral part of the trade as composites weren't yet in vogue.
I mounted the bases/rings/scope. B&L bases, rings, and scope combinations were pretty high end fare in those days, and considered top of the line.
Dies were CH, which became Bonanza, which merged to become Forster.
This rifle had a barrel made in Ackley's shop, and he warned me it would foul, no matter what I did to prevent it. The bore was tight all the way from the leade to the muzzle and had been hand lapped to a mirror finish.
What was obvious was the depth of the lands. They were shallow, appx .003 from what I could measure with my Starrett micrometer.
It didn't take very much fouling before groups opened and fliers appeared on targets.
The rifle also had a 1-9.5 twist rate, which was unusual for the time, because most 25 caliber barrels were 1-14 or 1-12.
Everyone considered them to be "too light" for Big Game.
People who knew better used them for quick kills on everything from gophers to Elk, Moose, Bear, but they used the heaviest bullets available at the time, 125 grain round nose, with relatively heavy jackets.
By today's standards, the 25-06 isn't considered to be "over bore capacity," but IMHO, it's pretty much a rimless magnum.
H4831 was one of the "slower" powders available to hand loaders back in the day, and even many commercial ammo manufacturers used it for a lot of their loads in many cartridges.
The 25-06 was meant to be fast, with light bullets, but that changed when folks realized how good the 25s performed with heavy bullets.
This is a bit off the topic, but it definitely will give you an idea of what's happening.
If you think the 25-06 is a fouler, try shooting a 17 Remington. The groove depths are around .002.
17 Remingtons easily produce 4000fps with just about every bullet weight available.
Anyone who has one realizes pretty quickly that even light loads will foul a barrel to the point that groups will start to open dramatically after 12-15 shots. No matter what you do, that won't change, other than you may get one more predictable shot out of a session, before a deep cleaning is needed.
High velocities, combined with high pressure and very shallow grooves, cause even a light skim of copper/carbon fouling to erode accuracy very quickly.
Let me give you an extreme example and a bit of history on the 25-06. There will likely be a few anomalies because of technological advances over the 55+ years I've shot this cartridge through a half dozen rifles.
I've used H4831 almost exclusively in my 25-06 cartridges from my very first rifle, a Winchester Mod 70, topped with a Bausch and Lomb, fixed 10X, with AO, starting in 1967.
The cartridge was still considered to be a wildcat, but was popular.
Parker Ackly chambered the barrel and fitted it to the action he had in his shop, did his magic to the trigger, then sent it to a local unknown stockmaker, which I suspect was actually an apprentice/student smith at the local college. Back then, stockmaking and fitting were an integral part of the trade as composites weren't yet in vogue.
I mounted the bases/rings/scope. B&L bases, rings, and scope combinations were pretty high end fare in those days, and considered top of the line.
Dies were CH, which became Bonanza, which merged to become Forster.
This rifle had a barrel made in Ackley's shop, and he warned me it would foul, no matter what I did to prevent it. The bore was tight all the way from the leade to the muzzle and had been hand lapped to a mirror finish.
What was obvious was the depth of the lands. They were shallow, appx .003 from what I could measure with my Starrett micrometer.
It didn't take very much fouling before groups opened and fliers appeared on targets.
The rifle also had a 1-9.5 twist rate, which was unusual for the time, because most 25 caliber barrels were 1-14 or 1-12.
Everyone considered them to be "too light" for Big Game.
People who knew better used them for quick kills on everything from gophers to Elk, Moose, Bear, but they used the heaviest bullets available at the time, 125 grain round nose, with relatively heavy jackets.
By today's standards, the 25-06 isn't considered to be "over bore capacity," but IMHO, it's pretty much a rimless magnum.
H4831 was one of the "slower" powders available to hand loaders back in the day, and even many commercial ammo manufacturers used it for a lot of their loads in many cartridges.
The 25-06 was meant to be fast, with light bullets, but that changed when folks realized how good the 25s performed with heavy bullets.
This is a bit off the topic, but it definitely will give you an idea of what's happening.
If you think the 25-06 is a fouler, try shooting a 17 Remington. The groove depths are around .002.
17 Remingtons easily produce 4000fps with just about every bullet weight available.
Anyone who has one realizes pretty quickly that even light loads will foul a barrel to the point that groups will start to open dramatically after 12-15 shots. No matter what you do, that won't change, other than you may get one more predictable shot out of a session, before a deep cleaning is needed.
High velocities, combined with high pressure and very shallow grooves, cause even a light skim of copper/carbon fouling to erode accuracy very quickly.
Vanderdootch
Member
- Location
- Flamborough
I appreciate the detailed response!
The rifle I am shooting is a Sako AV purchased by my dad in 1990. It sounds as though it may be fouling quickly for the very reasons you’ve explained.
Any suggestions on copper solvents? I’m currently using bore-tech eliminator as a general bore cleaner when my rifles require a bore swab, but have some Pro-Shot copper solvent. I honestly do not find that it gets the copper out any better than the bore tech eliminator.
Custom barrel and nothing but reloads, and no the copper fouling isn’t anything out of the ordinary compared to other rifles and barrels I’ve owned.
And getting 3775 with 75’s and even faster with 85’s…….
I use Wipe Out or First Choice, for most copper fouling. For the 17 Rem, I use Sweet's 303.
I don't have a 25-06 at this point, because the 257 Roberts comes so close, it does everything I need a 25 cal for. It will go 20-25 rounds before groups start to open, and shoot well enough on gophers/coyotes out to 250 yds up to 40 rounds.
Lefty ####, you're lucky, good on you, but you can only describe "your rifle," not the rest out there, unless you have several others doing the same thing.
I made my post on past experience, and have heard from a lot of other shooters with cartridges similar to or the same as the 25-06 having fouling issues.
Heat, pressure, and groove depth, all have an effect.
Varget powder for 25/06Rem. Just want to say I buy lots of Varget because it feeds my 22/250, 243W, 25/06, 6.5CM and 308Win.
And call me lucky because I seem to achieve excellent accuracy without much load development. Varget meters well in the Dillon 550 and seems to deliver very similar trajectories both summer and winter.
The HB Sako and the HB Tikkas in 25/06Rem just love the 87g Speer TNT bullets pushed at a pedestrian velocity of only 3,300ft/sec. Groups hover around 1” at 200 yards on a good weather day. Critters don’t explode but they still expire quickly and an added bonus is no copper fouling. Im sure I could juice the velocity up another 200-300 ft/sec faster but then all the other negative things come to visit.
As I tell my son i can compensate for the slower velocity by just adding a couple of elevation clicks to the Nightforce scope riding on top.
And call me lucky because I seem to achieve excellent accuracy without much load development. Varget meters well in the Dillon 550 and seems to deliver very similar trajectories both summer and winter.
The HB Sako and the HB Tikkas in 25/06Rem just love the 87g Speer TNT bullets pushed at a pedestrian velocity of only 3,300ft/sec. Groups hover around 1” at 200 yards on a good weather day. Critters don’t explode but they still expire quickly and an added bonus is no copper fouling. Im sure I could juice the velocity up another 200-300 ft/sec faster but then all the other negative things come to visit.
As I tell my son i can compensate for the slower velocity by just adding a couple of elevation clicks to the Nightforce scope riding on top.
Mr Bill, your post is pretty much the reason I settled on the 257 Roberts, but I likely would have been just as happy with a 250-3000, or a 25CM.
I tried the 257 Weatherby round in a Weatherby rifle, but even though it was an OK shooter, it didn't give me the accuracy I would have been OK with at that time in my life.
It was also a black hole for money when compared to the cost of shooting a 25-06 or 257 Roberts. Loaded rounds, and unprimed cases were hard to find, and had to be ordered through the very much snail mail of the day. Waiting more than a month or two for components wasn't unusual back then.
I tried the 257 Weatherby round in a Weatherby rifle, but even though it was an OK shooter, it didn't give me the accuracy I would have been OK with at that time in my life.
It was also a black hole for money when compared to the cost of shooting a 25-06 or 257 Roberts. Loaded rounds, and unprimed cases were hard to find, and had to be ordered through the very much snail mail of the day. Waiting more than a month or two for components wasn't unusual back then.
When I get around to rebuilding my 2506 im going with a fast twist long heavy barrel for the newest heavy weight bullets. Im toying with the idea of a 250 savage for the light weight bullets for coyotes. Last few years it hasn't been a priority as I've been far to busy to get out hunting them much
If the truth be told I still believe the 257 Roberts is the perfect little 25 cal. I held a Win70 FWT in 257 Roberts many moons ago and am still trying to buy/obtain it from the estate. I had reloaded 100 rounds
for old Vic and it supposedly was willed to me before he passed away. But we know how that sometimes goes…
Long story short I knew it needed a new barrel and I was prepared to send it to Insite for a new tube in the same caliber out of respect for old Vic. Maybe someday …
What’s that saying…”If you can’t have the one you love then love the one you’re with”.
That’s why I have 3 or 4 of these 25/06 Rems.
for old Vic and it supposedly was willed to me before he passed away. But we know how that sometimes goes…
Long story short I knew it needed a new barrel and I was prepared to send it to Insite for a new tube in the same caliber out of respect for old Vic. Maybe someday …
What’s that saying…”If you can’t have the one you love then love the one you’re with”.
That’s why I have 3 or 4 of these 25/06 Rems.
I figure any barrel that fouls to the point of group degradation hot loads or not in less than 50 rounds is a dog.
Also any rifle that requires fiddle ####ing around with just the right combination of reloading components and case prep to get sub inch groups is not put together right in the first place.
Also any rifle that requires fiddle ####ing around with just the right combination of reloading components and case prep to get sub inch groups is not put together right in the first place.
Vanderdootch
Member
- Location
- Flamborough
This calibre would be the first I have this experience with the excessive jacket fouling.
I couldn’t disagree more about the reloading components. I have reloaded for match rifles as well as factory rifles in a few different calibres and have come across some pre-Madonna barrels that will only shoot one bullet and I have had barrels that will digest a wide variety of bullet/powder combinations. I find it hard to believe that Lastgun has been able to achieve sub minute accuracy on multiple rifles/chambering by Willy Nilly throwing some stuff together and magically having it shoot sub minute on a consistent basis.
I couldn’t disagree more about the reloading components. I have reloaded for match rifles as well as factory rifles in a few different calibres and have come across some pre-Madonna barrels that will only shoot one bullet and I have had barrels that will digest a wide variety of bullet/powder combinations. I find it hard to believe that Lastgun has been able to achieve sub minute accuracy on multiple rifles/chambering by Willy Nilly throwing some stuff together and magically having it shoot sub minute on a consistent basis.
Only had two 25/06s, both shot 85/87s over 3600 with no special fouling. Likely never more than 30-40 rounds between cleaning at most though.
Your Remingtons, depending on when they were made, could have twist rates between 1-10 to 1-14.
The 1-10 might be able to push the heavy 134 grain ELM bullets fast enough to stabilize, but 1-8.5 is the recommended rate.
I chose the 257 Roberts because I can use several other cartridge cases to form, if I can't find them on the shelf at the local LGS.
I've never had to form different cases for the 257Rob, simply because I ended up with over 1K NIB, Norma cases, over 20 years ago, from a gun shop going out of business in Prince George, BC. The fellow was very old, was only opening on days he felt like it, and it was in a run down store in a run down area, close to the railroad tracks heading North. I don't remember his name. He had lots of new old stock items, dating from the mid sixties. I bought as much as my Dodge 3/4 ton could carry.
I made a deal with him to take the stuff home and come back with a cube style trailer, to purchase whatever else he wanted to sell, but that would be about two weeks before I could get back. He had a stroke during that time, and his daughter sold everything in the store to a shop on the North end of PG. He was a nice guy.
MTM, if you have three 25-06 rifles and want something with a bit less powder appetite, less leade and bore wear, take the rifle to a smith, have the tenon cut off, cut a new tenon, and have the chamber recut for a 25 cal cartridge you like. It would be a cheap route to see if it's what you want. Then if you really feel the need or just want a tighter twist, rebarrel it down the road with a custom barrel.
I would go with the barrel with some wear, so you could also clean up the throats/leade.
