Believe you are very correct on that statement about Winchester guns and the Model 21.
Winchester Model 21 28 Gauge
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I'm not a gunsmith. And while i have a fair bit of experience with vintage SxS, it would be nothing compared to the experience a dedicated SxS smith would get. The guy who wrote this is probably one of the top five gunsmiths working in the US. he has no corporate affiliation and is known for speaking his mind. The following is his assessment of the M21
For anyone interested he has done similar assessments of most American makers from the classic era. Its a bit eye opening......utterly divorced from favoritism. He's just a gunsmith reporting on something he knows a lot about.
His name is Dewey Vicknair and he has a fascinating blog for anyone who wants to dive deep in the mysterious arts of fine gunsmiths. He also does the occasional custom build and some are mind blowing. Just google his name. Easy to find.
BTW, Got my first 28 gauge about 5 years ago. A Francotte with 26" barrels that weighs in a 4 lbs 11 oz. A delightful little gun. Won't be my last.
Regarding the Model 21,
- The dovetailed lump barrel construction adds ZERO strength materially to the barrel assembly because more often than not the actual fit of the dovetails is quite sloppy. The soft solder joint and two small-diameter crosspins do most (if not all) of the work of holding the barrels together. Take a look at the photos and video below and tell me again about the strength and precision of the dovetail joint.
- The rib and forend lug joints fail with amazing regularity. In 25 years, I've stripped and relaid as many 21s as Smiths. Trust me that's a lot. Here's what happens when the forend lug joint fails.
- I don't think that any well-designed gun should have ANY parts that are held in place by staking alone.
- I personally don't consider the 21 to be a "classic" double, it came on the scene very late, is completely coil-spring driven and is made of much more modern materials than the other American doubles (these are good things). It's really a modern-ish double that is a mashup of Ithaca NID cocking mechanism, Ithaca Flues underbolt and, lastly, just like the Flues, there is no mechanism by which the head of the stock is drawn tightly (in an axial manner) against the frame.
I'm familiar with the legend of the destruction tests of the 21 against the other doubles and all I can say about that is, it's absurd and lacking in any documentary evidence. In fact, depending upon who is telling the tale, the 21 was either tested against all of the other American doubles, or it was tested against the best of England, or it was tested against both, or it was simply tested by itself. The catalog photo of a 21 resting on a pile of fired proof shells proves nothing beyond the marketing department's firm grasp of their job. But, but, advertising was "honest" back then you say? A company wasn't allowed to make untrue claims, you say? Well, here is an ad from the model 21's time period. It's about as true as the supposed "torture test".
Even if it did happen (which is highly debatable), it's comparing apples to oranges, and no one shoots proof loads regularly. The 21 is a gun, made of modern (for its time) materials, designed to shoot modern ammo and the "test" (if it ever really even happened as they say, or, at all) proved nothing except that all of the guns purportedly tested were indeed stronger than they needed to be, for the ammunition and use for which they were designed. But Americans seem to be obsessed with "strength", whether real or imagined, so I'm sure that that also helped to build the model 21 legend. The name on the barrel doesn't hurt either, in that regard. In fact, were it not for that name, the gun would be seen for what it actually is: just another mass-produced, boxlock side-by-side with some questionable design features (and when ordered with it, THE most aesthetically challenged leather covered pad to ever issue from any factory).
If you like 21s, that's great, they're a serviceable gun, but to compare them to classic-era (or English) doubles, is an unfair, uninformed comparison. To tout it as some sort of indestructible super-gun, handed down from Mount Olympus by Zeus himself, is to substitute feeling for facts.
Just as with my Smith posting, I did not mention aesthetics (aside from the terrible factory leather pad) or handling. These areas are entirely subjective and I am certainly no one to tell another what they should (or should not) like.
For anyone interested he has done similar assessments of most American makers from the classic era. Its a bit eye opening......utterly divorced from favoritism. He's just a gunsmith reporting on something he knows a lot about.
His name is Dewey Vicknair and he has a fascinating blog for anyone who wants to dive deep in the mysterious arts of fine gunsmiths. He also does the occasional custom build and some are mind blowing. Just google his name. Easy to find.
BTW, Got my first 28 gauge about 5 years ago. A Francotte with 26" barrels that weighs in a 4 lbs 11 oz. A delightful little gun. Won't be my last.
These fine guns would be within my realm of affordability ...
Ralph Martini has a 12 gauge on his website ...the 20 gauge sold not that long go.
A 28 is a coupe de grace for the serious collector regardless of how much it weighs when collecting Model 21's .
Yes ,the Browning Model 12 28 gauge are nice guns.In the past,I had a Grade I.Used it a bit,but found it a bit heavy for my taste in a 28 gauge field gun and sold it.
I have three original 12 gauge Model 12 guns and a 12 gauge Super-X Model 1
A most interesting read.thanks for posting.So it would seem, that a lot of the Model 21 was based on the Ithaca NID.
Yes a 4 pound 11 ounce 28 gauge would be a pure joy to carry afield,I am sure. Yes ,it is hard to stay with only one 28 gauge gun.
Would have to agree 100% with your last sentence.
This was an interesting read, actually more like depressing. Dewey Downer !! Was having dinner with friends when I read your post and then had to re-read it again after I got home. Dewey kicked a sacred cow in the sack and he burst my bubble too. My enthusiasm for a Model 21 28g dropped from a 9.9 to a 7/10. Tears in my eyes and I needed a Kleenex, but on the bright side you may have saved me $30G, so thank you I guess.
Im not big into engraving and gold inlays. I see the beauty in well machined blued steel and gorgeous wood….and a form that follows function. Barrels have to coincide and lockwork has to function. Ive passed on some incredibly beautiful round body 28g shotguns in the past. Still remember one that had about 100 birds-eye patterns on the stock, made in Italy and $15,000 about 20 years ago. Click, click…bang and one barrel high right and the other low left. I think that gunsmith was drinking a lot of wine on the job.
Next time I see a Mod 21 I’ll ask to have it taken apart for a better inspection. I recall they are pretty basic looking inside.
Canvasback, I appreciate your opinion, more honest than an Amazon review. Cheers !!
Don't feel too bad ,Bill.I am sure if you look inside most of the top SXS guns ,they are not as good as we think they are.With the possible exception, of a high end British made gun.
I still have a 28 gauge Winchester Model 21 as my holy grail gun.
From what I understand, the writer has little good to say about Ithaca,L C Smith , Parker or any other U.S. SXS gun either.
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That’s definitely one of the funnier posts I’ve read here in the shotgun section. Now I’m sorry I inflicted Dewey Downer on you.
I hope you and others do take the time to visit his blog. It’s fascinating. And extremely instructive.
Don't feel too bad ,Bill.I am sure if you look inside most of the top SXS guns ,they are not as good as we think they are.With the possible exception, of a high end British made gun.
I still have a 28 gauge Winchester Model 21 as my holy grail gun.
Yep! He doesn’t hold back on any of them.
I love my Foxes. But reading guys like Dewey keep me grounded. The truth is, as good a design as a Fox is, one reason it’s good it’s it still works well and looks good with incredibly shoddy workmanship.
I've never heard of this Dewey Downer gunsmith guy but I suspect he's completely full of sh+t. Must have gotten fired from Winchester and carried a grudge. I've followed Winchester shotguns most of my life and the Model 21 was the Olin bros pride and joy and they spared nothing in the manufacture of the gun.
The M21 was proof tested 200% above proof. Many M21's have been rode hard and put up wet for many years and then rebuilt and used another two or more lifetimes and still in use today. The Model 21 doesn't command the high prices it enjoys and the following it has by being what this guy claims. He should have stuck his head in the toilet and flushed twice.
The M21 was proof tested 200% above proof. Many M21's have been rode hard and put up wet for many years and then rebuilt and used another two or more lifetimes and still in use today. The Model 21 doesn't command the high prices it enjoys and the following it has by being what this guy claims. He should have stuck his head in the toilet and flushed twice.
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Maybe deciding he is full of $hit when you admittedly know nothing about him says more about you being caught up in collector frenzy than anything about his work, opinions or the guns. Too many people know it all and aren't interested in learning. You've already admitted a strong bias. I suspect you aren't a skilled gunsmith with decades of experience. LOL
Answer me this Rod. Why is the M21 28 gauge so much more expensive than a similar grade and condition M21 12 gauge? Don't bother, I'll tell you. Rarity. Simply that and nothing else. Rarity. Which means the price is reflective of short supply, not inherent quality. Which is also why most quality vintage 28 gauges are so much more expensive than the comparable model in 12 gauge. The prices reflect demand and rarity, not quality.
The reaction of Mr Bill and 28 gauge 2, both admitted admirers of M21, to new information is kind of instructive. They haven't given up their love for the gun. They just now know a little more than they did before.
Much easier to lash out than to learn.
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Rod…thank you so much for coming to my ‘emotional rescue’ after being subjected to the Dewey experience…you are an empathetic soul, and kindred spirit. The last time I felt so negative was when a woman with a breast size larger than her IQ said no to me…lol…it’s all good. I have a thick skin and a good sense of humour.
I actually took the time to read Deweys blogs last night, he was ‘tough’ on everyones product ….and probably disliked his mother, his own children and kicked the cat, so he had at least one redeeming quality. In Deweys defence he shares something in common with 3 gunsmiths that I personally knew very well. They are perfectionists and can’t leave anything alone without having to tweak it the day they bring it home from the gun store. Nothing is good enough until it has been blessed by their own personal hands and validated by vernier callipers to a thousandth of an inch. Dewey also repairs watches, thats another league of precision and even though he seems to have a cantankerous OCD attitude I would probably still bring him a shotgun for restoration. I trust these people to do the best work on my toys.
Canvasback was on point with comments about Win 21 value going over the moon just because of the rarity of the smaller gauges ever made. Not quality but lack if quantity. I purchased a Winchester model 21 in 12 gauge for my son for $3000. He had it restored, and I could not believe that the gun looked as if it was brand new in the box on completion. He went on to sell it and it got scooped up for $10,000 quickly.
I’m still in the market for Winchester 21 but the 28 gauge factor is 90% of the driving force for the acquisition. I’m certain the gun will outlive me and survive to go into the next generation. The search continues. I have an itch to scratch and a niche to fill. Cheers.
Yes the reason the cost of a 28 gauge Model 21 is so high,is because it is the rarer version.Being a 28 gauge addict and a Winchester fan, it would only stand to reason ,that I would have a 28 gauge Model 21 as my holy grail gun.Although I would not mind a nice Parker or Ithaca either.
Rarity, Originality, Condition, factored into the state of the economy reflects Price. It's not a mystery.
There will always be the haters out there for whatever reason and that's the way it is. It's their problem and they most likely hate everything including themselves. It doesn't take a gunsmith or a genius to understand the admiration and value of an original Winchester Model 21. A M21, in 28 ga, is rare so it's worth more. Same with 28 ga Model 12. The problem today is establishing Originality.
There will always be the haters out there for whatever reason and that's the way it is. It's their problem and they most likely hate everything including themselves. It doesn't take a gunsmith or a genius to understand the admiration and value of an original Winchester Model 21. A M21, in 28 ga, is rare so it's worth more. Same with 28 ga Model 12. The problem today is establishing Originality.
Gentlemen and fellow 28 gauge afficionados !! We should all get together with our Mr. Visa credit cards and go on a shopping Safari to America to buy some high-end side x side shotguns. Ive seen a few in the quarter million dollar mark. We could all chip in and buy one on a time share program. At the very least we may run across a few 28g Mod 21’s in need of a good new home. Several mentions of these English best guns has perked my interest. I think we all deserve at least one best gun each. And as for Dewey…no soup for you.
CSMC make a light weight 28 ga M21---I'm sure its under 7 lbs.
Winchester only made a small number of 28 ga M21's (a figure of 200 comes to mind) and most were made for competition skeet shooting. The serious skeet shooter (I used to be one) shoots 4 gauges (12, 20, 28 and 410) and ideally they want all 4 guns to be of similar weight. Winchester made the M21 in 28 gauge and eventually the 410 at the special request of a small number of dedicated shooters who could afford the best. This was back in the 40's and 50's when side-by-sides were popular with skeet shooters, and trap shooters too.
I'm a dedicated M21 and have been for over 50 years. I've owned 12, 16 and 20 gauges. For upland shooting the 16's and 20's are under 7 lbs and are a delight in the field. Back in the day when we could use lead for waterfowl, a 12 ga M21 was deadly.
I, too, have dreamed of a 28 ga M21 but the cost is prohibitive. If I win a lottery I'll get a 28 and 410 M21. I like them that much.
Before closing, I'll add my thoughts on the ideal weight of a field shotgun. If you get into high volume shooting (1000 shots a day is common) such as doves and pigeons in Argentina a 28 ga is ideal--- you want a gun that doesn't kick the snot out of you---a 7.5 lb M21 would be perfect. But that same gun would be too heavy for ruffed grouse or woodcock. Hunting late season sharptails in Alberta or Saskatchewan requires heavy loads and a 7-7.5 lb gun is ideal inspite of the handicap of carrying it for hour after hour. And, if you enjoy shooting skeet, trap and sporting clays you want some heft in your shotgun to give you pointability and soak up recoil.
Bill
Winchester only made a small number of 28 ga M21's (a figure of 200 comes to mind) and most were made for competition skeet shooting. The serious skeet shooter (I used to be one) shoots 4 gauges (12, 20, 28 and 410) and ideally they want all 4 guns to be of similar weight. Winchester made the M21 in 28 gauge and eventually the 410 at the special request of a small number of dedicated shooters who could afford the best. This was back in the 40's and 50's when side-by-sides were popular with skeet shooters, and trap shooters too.
I'm a dedicated M21 and have been for over 50 years. I've owned 12, 16 and 20 gauges. For upland shooting the 16's and 20's are under 7 lbs and are a delight in the field. Back in the day when we could use lead for waterfowl, a 12 ga M21 was deadly.
I, too, have dreamed of a 28 ga M21 but the cost is prohibitive. If I win a lottery I'll get a 28 and 410 M21. I like them that much.
Before closing, I'll add my thoughts on the ideal weight of a field shotgun. If you get into high volume shooting (1000 shots a day is common) such as doves and pigeons in Argentina a 28 ga is ideal--- you want a gun that doesn't kick the snot out of you---a 7.5 lb M21 would be perfect. But that same gun would be too heavy for ruffed grouse or woodcock. Hunting late season sharptails in Alberta or Saskatchewan requires heavy loads and a 7-7.5 lb gun is ideal inspite of the handicap of carrying it for hour after hour. And, if you enjoy shooting skeet, trap and sporting clays you want some heft in your shotgun to give you pointability and soak up recoil.
Bill
So Bill, are you now thinking of a W.W. Greener 28 gauge?
Interesting you mention Argentinian dove shooting Bill. I was talking with a friend last night about this M21 and we both agreed it was about the only kind of live bird shooting with that 28 ga that seemed to make sense.
