Do I need a heavier recoil spring??

[saskgunowner101]

So I'm at the range tonight with another cgn'er, trying some handloads out in my m&p 40. One batch is starting load territory for Titegroup and 180grn Excel's in 40 s & w (4-4.2 grains) They run through fine, except for a few primers perhaps not seated well enough, so some cartridges are loaded again and fire. This I can understand, need to seat primers a bit deeper. The next batch is where it got funny sort of. Had 135 grain nosler jhp's on top of 10.7 grains Longshot. Wow! A small fireball, more recoil and snap. In the end, it shot pretty good........except for how it would kick brass pretty much straight back(5 or 6 times out of 50). Normally brass flies up and back to the 4 or 5 o clock position behind. Was told it could be the recoil spring being too light for this load. Whats a guy to do if he wants to shoot these loads?? Heavier spring?? Any other reloaders have this bizarre problem?? Thanks in advance.

 

[9mikemike]

If you are shooting a heavy load you need a heavy spring, light load = light spring. 4-5 out of 50 isn't bad, I have a 226 that insists on leaving all of the brass on my hat, or arms. That's because I haven't really dicked with the load or springs yet.
I would look at getting a heavier spring if you are going to keep shooting that load. Maybe you should tone it down a little, you'll probably get the same performance without the heavy recoil and ejection problems.

 

[hatman1793]

Less is more.

Drop your TiteGroup load down to 4.0 grains with the180. Even 3.8 to 3.9 will work the action.
Why beat up such a nice gun. The 40 S&W cartridge fires a 180grain bullet at 800 to 950 max. Faster velocities are not required unless you have a special application in mind, say, like shooting bowling pins. [but then, the 45acp is a better choice]
Dropping your load down to 4.0 should give better accuracy and less recoil.

 

[saskgunowner101]

hatman

Drop your TiteGroup load down to 4.0 grains with the180. Even 3.8 to 3.9 will work the action.
Why beat up such a nice gun. The 40 S&W cartridge fires a 180grain bullet at 800 to 950 max. Faster velocities are not required unless you have a special application in mind, say, like shooting bowling pins. [but then, the 45acp is a better choice]
Dropping your load down to 4.0 should give better accuracy and less recoil.

The 180 grain bullet with titegroup behind it was no problem. It was the lighter 135 grain bullets with longshot that turned me into the forehead brass deflector! The loads with longshot were 10.7 grains, only .2 above starting, and 1.3 grains below max load. I only punch holes in paper, so I have no particular application in mind. Just wanted to be able to launch a few fire-breathing dragons now and then without getting nailed in the head!

 

[hatman1793]

Limited use.

Its nice to have some lighter bullets sometimes. 9mm has an easier application because the range of lightness, say 115 grainers to 147 heavies is not as great as the 40's: 135 to 180.
Point of aim will be affected too, and you have to use a ton more powder. More powder = more velocity = greater slide velocity. The extra speed of the slide cannot normally be handled by the recoil spring. Hence, the brass gets kicked out faster and goes farther. Plus the slide beats the frame.
My choice would be to go a little lighter or a little heavier. Not dramatically.

 

[EdGCNM]

Shoot your kickass fawty gangsta style and da brass will bounce offen da floor. Problem solved!

 

[TDC]

Drop your TiteGroup load down to 4.0 grains with the180. Even 3.8 to 3.9 will work the action.
Why beat up such a nice gun. The 40 S&W cartridge fires a 180grain bullet at 800 to 950 max. Faster velocities are not required unless you have a special application in mind, say, like shooting bowling pins. [but then, the 45acp is a better choice]
Dropping your load down to 4.0 should give better accuracy and less recoil.

For starters, as long as the recipe is producing factory or close to factory velocities, there is no issue with "beating up the gun". The published max velocity for 40 with a 180 gr projectile is not 800-950. Federal offers several 180gr loads at a published velocity of 1000 fps. Their 135 gr load is published at 1200 fps.

Your advice for using 45ACP for bowling pins is also flawed. The difference in energy between similar cartridges (180 grain factory loads) is close to 30 ft/lbs in favor of the 40 over the 45. Even using the hottest 230 gr 45ACP load offered from Federal the difference in energy is only 4 ft/lbs in favor of the 45ACP.

As far as recoil springs go. The factory springs will work just fine, as long as your loads are within factory specs. Heavier springs can cause issues depending on how much of an increase in spring weight is used as well as what load you're shooting. Personally, using springs that are lighter than factory springs is a recipe for early pistol replacement. Again, this is dependent on what load you shoot. However, any load that is light enough to require a lighter spring to function is likely too light to be of any use, and If recoil is an issue, run a smaller calibre or hit the gym. If you're shooting bowling pins. Apply some well placed shots and the rest is history regardless of calibre.


TDC

 

[TDC]

Its nice to have some lighter bullets sometimes. 9mm has an easier application because the range of lightness, say 115 grainers to 147 heavies is not as great as the 40's: 135 to 180.
Point of aim will be affected too, and you have to use a ton more powder. More powder = more velocity = greater slide velocity. The extra speed of the slide cannot normally be handled by the recoil spring. Hence, the brass gets kicked out faster and goes farther. Plus the slide beats the frame.
My choice would be to go a little lighter or a little heavier. Not dramatically.

I'm confused, do you mean point of impact? In either case, its a non issue. Unless you shoot at extended ranges(50 yards or greater) the difference between 115, 124, and 147 gr 9mm or any of the common weights for the big three calibres will be so small as to go unnoticed. Myself and many fellow shooters have shot several weights, makes, and styles of projectiles in a single session to notice ZERO change in POI or POA.

Again, if you review the published ballistics offered by Federal(I picked them out of convenience) the difference between the POI on 45ACP 230 gr, and 165gr is a mere 0.7 inches at 50 YARDS! For 40 I compared their 180 gr to their 135 gr and again the difference was a whopping 0.6 inches at 50 YARDS!

Any difference in POI between brands, weights, or styles at traditional or even extended ranges are purely the result of the operator not the pistol or ammo.

TDC

 

[hatman1793]

Not really.

My advice stands. Should he want to fire hot loaded factory or hot reloaded 40 ammo using a much lighter bullet, the brass will always go farther. A hot loaded 40 kicks like crazy. The factory spring is not set up for a steady diet of hot ammo. Put a heavier spring in if this is your desire.
45acp autos rule pin matches followed by various 45acp revolvers and 357 mag revovlers.

 

[TDC]

The use of ammo that produces factory figures whether that be factory ammo or reloads is a non issue for the pistol. If your firearm can't handle a steady diet of factory loads then you bought a lemon. The M&P is not in that category. A heavier spring aids in faster lock times and more reliable operation. If recoil is your concern then run a smaller calibre or hit the gym. None of the big 3 calibres produces any significant recoil. A friend of mine's 11 year old daughter will only shoot his 1911 with full house loads, and never complains of recoil. The increase in muzzle flip with some loads/calibres can be overcome with training and skill.

As for pin matches, its the shooter not the gear that wins the match. I've beat more than a few 45 guys with my little 9mm.

TDC

 

[saskgunowner101]

The use of ammo that produces factory figures whether that be factory ammo or reloads is a non issue for the pistol. If your firearm can't handle a steady diet of factory loads then you bought a lemon. The M&P is not in that category. A heavier spring aids in faster lock times and more reliable operation. If recoil is your concern then run a smaller calibre or hit the gym. None of the big 3 calibres produces any significant recoil. A friend of mine's 11 year old daughter will only shoot his 1911 with full house loads, and never complains of recoil. The increase in muzzle flip with some loads/calibres can be overcome with training and skill.

As for pin matches, its the shooter not the gear that wins the match. I've beat more than a few 45 guys with my little 9mm.

TDC

Factory ammo has never been a problem with the m&p, nor the 180 grain bullet reloads with titegroup. The reloading data center-hogdgon website lists the 135 grain nosler and 10.5 grain longshot at 1367 f.p.s. I don't know how much above a factory load this is, or even if it is. The max load of 12 grains longshot has 1480 f.p.s. stated, with the pressure running at 32400 p.s.i. Recoil is increased over the factory loads, as is blast and snap. It was just an observation on the recoil, not whining cause its too much! Anyone else here loaded the longshot & 135 grain bullet combo?

 

[TDC]

I'd say that the recipes offered by Hodgdon will not be a safety concern as far as damaging the firearm is concerned. As you mentioned, the recoil was increased over factory loads. That being the case I would reduce my load to better replicate a factory load you're satisfied with shooting.

TDC