Bear Protection Shotgun

[riversrest]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but most of the time your duty gear isn't chosen because it's the best

The aim of the game is not to kill the bear if not necessary. But keep people safe. I guess you don't know much...

E.g. most bears coming into a remote camp are not predatory but look for food which some idiot workers left in their tent or a wall tent kitchens, or around the incinerator,...

They are easy to chase out firing a few good rubberslugs on 'em.

I hate to tell you that the Benelli or any other semis are not cicling those. So while you clear the jam in your chamber you've lost !

 

[DaveMachine]

I stand corrected

 

[ThatGuy]

Jeepers, fellas. Such hostility...

The problem is that a number of things are all true at the same time, and some of those truths work against each other at the extremes:

Slower bullets out-penetrate faster bullets, sturdier bullets out-penetrate softer bullets, bullets with more energy out-penetrate bullets with less energy, softer bullets create better wound profiles, harder bullets create deeper wound profiles, etc, etc.

You can play the same game with external ballistics as well.

A rifle bullet that penetrates 30 or 40 inches but creates a calibre-sized wound channel is a terrible bear defense round (for obvious reasons); likewise a bullet that creates a 12 inch wide wound channel 3 inches deep (again, for obvious reasons).

Research from Fackler suggests that 12ga slugs penetrate reasonably well, although (interestingly) not with nearly as much penetration as that from a 170gr .30-30 Win (Fackler, again). Furthermore, rifled slugs do not expand well, if at all, and as they're moving at not much more than pistol-bullet speeds, they produce very narrow wound channels (~.70 Cal), albeit very deep ones.

But put all the terminal ballistics nerdery aside for a moment to examine the platform itself: you would be hard pressed to find a more appropriate short-range defensive weapon than a pump action 12ga (or a good semi). Cheap, reliable, easy to maintain, easy to procure ammo for, easy to operate, easy to train with, easy to find safe venues to train at, light, compact, reasonably high capacity ... The list goes on.

At the end of the day, a defensive weapon, from the perspective of the user, needs to be accessible, reliable, capable of being used confidently and competently, and reasonably adequate for it's purposes in a terminal-ballistics sense. Like any other firearm, if you choose a projectile that creates a broad and deep enough wound channel, and superimpose that wound channel over a part of the target's anatomy that is essential to the target's health and wellbeing, then you will have succeeded.

The 12ga shotgun is more than adequate for bear defense. There are many other weapons that are also adequate.

And now no one needs to be touchy about the subject.

 

[Suther]

You are using an emotionally driven apples to pears argument, and showing ridiculous data to try and make it something it can’t simply be.
Any solid bullet.. out of pretty much any centre fire rifle, shot at the same distance will out penetrate a shotgun slug. Every. Single. Time.
It’s math and physics. Reality.
If slugs were so great, then why aren’t they the go to for renowned bear, big and dangerous game hunters around the world? They aren’t. Because they don’t work.

R.

Any solid bullet?

But also we're talking about guides?

Pick a lane dude, solid bullets aren't legal for hunting. Those guides aren't using solid bullets.

They also prefer to shoot their bears at ranges farther than 15yds, and the terrible ballistics of a 12ga slug mean they're nowhere near as good as a 300 or 338 magnum at 100yds+.

99% of people carrying a rifle in North America are not packing solids. But if you're that 1%, congrats, you win the internet today.


And bears are not elephants and buffalo, no matter how much you pretend they are.

 

[riversrest]

Jeepers, fellas. Such hostility...

The problem is that a number of things are all true at the same time, and some of those truths work against each other at the extremes:

Slower bullets out-penetrate faster bullets, sturdier bullets out-penetrate softer bullets, bullets with more energy out-penetrate bullets with less energy, softer bullets create better wound profiles, harder bullets create deeper wound profiles, etc, etc.

You can play the same game with external ballistics as well.

A rifle bullet that penetrates 30 or 40 inches but creates a calibre-sized wound channel is a terrible bear defense round (for obvious reasons); likewise a bullet that creates a 12 inch wide wound channel 3 inches deep (again, for obvious reasons).

Research from Fackler suggests that 12ga slugs penetrate reasonably well, although (interestingly) not with nearly as much penetration as that from a 170gr .30-30 Win (Fackler, again). Furthermore, rifled slugs do not expand well, if at all, and as they're moving at not much more than pistol-bullet speeds, they produce very narrow wound channels (~.70 Cal), albeit very deep ones.

But put all the terminal ballistics nerdery aside for a moment to examine the platform itself: you would be hard pressed to find a more appropriate short-range defensive weapon than a pump action 12ga (or a good semi). Cheap, reliable, easy to maintain, easy to procure ammo for, easy to operate, easy to train with, easy to find safe venues to train at, light, compact, reasonably high capacity ... The list goes on.

At the end of the day, a defensive weapon, from the perspective of the user, needs to be accessible, reliable, capable of being used confidently and competently, and reasonably adequate for it's purposes in a terminal-ballistics sense. Like any other firearm, if you choose a projectile that creates a broad and deep enough wound channel, and superimpose that wound channel over a part of the target's anatomy that is essential to the target's health and wellbeing, then you will have succeeded.

The 12ga shotgun is more than adequate for bear defense. There are many other weapons that are also adequate.

And now no one needs to be touchy about the subject.

Do you have any practical experience ?

 

[ThatGuy]

Do you have any practical experience ?

In what sense? I'm not a ballistician or some kind is expert in gunshot wounds.

I'm an amateur student of ballistics in general, and terminal ballistics in particular (for what that's worth; I find it extremely interesting). I read a lot about the subject, and I'm familiar with the work of Martin Fackler. I've trained a lot of people to use a lot of weapons. And in 1 of 1 defensive bear encounters I've been in, the bear died (I wasn't using a 12ga).

But I think my post above was broadly reasonable. Happy to discuss.

 

[riversrest]

In what sense? I'm not a ballistician or some kind is expert in gunshot wounds.

Bear defence shot guns ?

 

[ThatGuy]

Bear defence shot guns ?

Specifically shotguns, specifically for bears...? Somewhat, in the sense that I've carried one for bear defense, both personally and (on occasion) professionally. But I have not killed dozens of bears with a shotgun.

From the data that I've seen, and from my experience shooting slugs and rifle bullets at things, a slug will penetrate about as well (more or less) as a bullet. The harder and heavier the slug, the more penetration you'll get. What you won't get is any kind of dramatic rifle-esque wound channel, because the slug just isn't moving fast enough, and it won't fragment well at all. The slug will also penetrate less well than a projectile of that weight otherwise would due to its poor sectional density. Nevertheless, you'll get ~rifle round penetration depth and a .70 Cal hole. I promise, it'll be adequate inside (let's say) 50 yards, and probably out to 100 yards or so.

 

[riversrest]

Specifically shotguns, specifically for bears...? Somewhat, in the sense that I've carried one for bear defense, both personally and (on occasion) professionally. But I have not killed dozens of bears with a shotgun.

So, what do you use ?

 

[Gatehouse]

I've killed quite a few bears with both rifles and shotguns. Shotguns are short range weapons, even with slugs. The velocity of a rifle is what makes it superior for killing things fast, even charging bears. None of the northern guides that hunt grizzlies carry shotguns except maybe in camp. When grizzly hunting in BC was legal, shotguns with slugs were not permitted to be used. Actually the only big game legal to hunt with a shotgun in BC is deer, bear, wolf and cougar.

Arguing about penetration between slugs and rifle bullets is ridiculous. Who really cares about ballistic gel tests of bullet vs slugs penetration depth when you are dealing with an unruly bear? Both of them will do the job of stopping a bear from chewing on you, as long as an appropriate projectile is used. I have seen first hand highly frangible and very fast moving bullets blow up on a deer shoulder and I've seen really soft slugs pancake and not penetrate into a bear very well too.

The first bear I shot with my then brand new 375 Ruger was a frontal shot on a large black bear, he was at least 6 feet. and he was very thick, he had about 4" of fat all over his body. It was very close range, less than 10 yards or so. From this discussion I'm supposed to believe that penetration would be lacking due to high velocity. But the 260 Gr Nosler Accubond went right through that bear from chest to tail and he dropped immediately. When skinning him out I found the bullet under the skin on the rump and the bullet was a perfect mushroom, it looked like it could be used in a Nosler promotion.

So I'm surprised to learn from reading those ballistic gel tests about how a fast moving bullet is going to have limited penetration in a bear defense situation.

 

[ThatGuy]

So, what do you use ?

My go-to is a Marlin 336 in .30-30. It fits the "is it a good platform, and does it perform adequately?" requirements that I laid out for the pump action shotgun. What it gives me that a 12ga doesn't is reach out to ~200yds in a very well balanced and sensible package. A very favourable set of characteristics and compromises, from my perspective.

And maybe most importantly, it's handy enough and rugged enough that I can keep it handy literally every time I'm out in bear country (and not already hunting with something else).

 

[riversrest]

My go-to is a Marlin 336 in .30-30. It fits the "is it a good platform, and does it perform adequately?" requirements that I laid out for the pump action shotgun. What it gives me that a 12ga doesn't is reach out to ~200yds in a very well balanced and sensible package. A very favourable set of characteristics and compromises, from my perspective.

IMO, 200 yards away does not really qualify for "bear defence", just sayin...

 

[ThatGuy]

IMO, 200 yards away does not really qualify for "bear defence", just sayin...

I don't disagree...

But I also didn't mean to imply that it's my "bear-gun-that-I-only-ever-shoot-bears-with" gun. I do other things with it too, that I couldn't necessarily do if I was carrying a shotgun and slugs. Nevertheless, it's adequate for bears in extremis.

 

[DGY]

The bear gun I use is the gun I carry that day! That said I always feel more comfortable with my center fire rifles in larger calibres like 30-06, 8x57, 9.3x62 etc than my 22lr but when I’m grouse hunting I don’t cary a 22 and then a 12 gauge. I use to have a 7x57 over 12 gauge combo that I sold but I’m planing to get an other one. I find it was the perfect camp/walking around camp gun, you can shoot grouse and rabbit with it and if you ran into a bear or moose or caribou it would do a great job at taking them down. And in a defence situation, you have 2 really quick shot a 12 gauge slug followed by an adequate center fire round(I mostly hunt with heavy for caliber bullets).
I really need to get me an other one! 20 or 12 gauge and 8x57jrs..

 

[Prosnowsk8er]

Old Goat 1980 Rem 870 Wingmaster 12 Ga with 18.5 CYL barrel no MIM - Metal Injection Molding parts.

been keeping my eye out for an 18.5" barrel for my minty 1952 870 wingmaster I got from my friends dad.

 

[Rman]

Any solid bullet?

But also we're talking about guides?

Pick a lane dude, solid bullets aren't legal for hunting. Those guides aren't using solid bullets.

They also prefer to shoot their bears at ranges farther than 15yds, and the terrible ballistics of a 12ga slug mean they're nowhere near as good as a 300 or 338 magnum at 100yds+.

99% of people carrying a rifle in North America are not packing solids. But if you're that 1%, congrats, you win the internet today.


And bears are not elephants and buffalo, no matter how much you pretend they are.

Solid bullet, as in solid construction. Sturdy. Fit for purpose.

Bear protection isn’t hunting bears, is it?

Your agenda is obvious, but so severely flawed, everyone but you can see it.
You telling me to pick a lane is as laughable as suggesting that a shotgun slug will out penetrate a bullet, then citing one test by one guy one time to “prove it”.
It isn’t about winning. It’s about identifying myths and long standing fuddisems that get passed around as fact, and perpetuated with a bunch of apples to pears comparisons to try and “prove” it.

Shotguns for bear defence are a myth. The only exception would be the use of less than lethal ammo.

Almost any rifle would be a far better choice.

It really isn’t that difficult to figure out, for most. Is it?

R.

 

[geologist]

The aim of the game is not to kill the bear if not necessary. But keep people safe. I guess you don't know much...

E.g. most bears coming into a remote camp are not predatory but look for food which some idiot workers left in their tent or a wall tent kitchens, or around the incinerator,...

They are easy to chase out firing a few good rubberslugs on 'em.

I hate to tell you that the Benelli or any other semis are not cicling those. So while you clear the jam in your chamber you've lost !

Agreed, most of the time, bears in camp mean you f*cked up.

I advocate ranged deterrents where applicable. Sound like airhorns/whistles plus 100m, crack flares 60-75 yards, 50 yards rubber slug at the bum end.

Do you fire your non-lethals from your primary shotgun? I prefer my geos to have a separate launcher for their non lethals so that their primary shotgun can never get disabled by a non lethal stuck in their barrel.

In a pinch you can launch your non lethals from a 26.5mm flare gun keeping your shotgun ready with slugs if needed.

https://imgur.com/kDMw2sA

https://imgur.com/ECcE9ia

https://imgur.com/a/lG6NNoP

 

[Suther]

Bear protection isn’t hunting bears, is it?

Then why did you bring up hunting guides and dangerous game hunters?


What specifically makes a rifle a better choice? Energy? Velocity? Penetration? Size of the hole? If it's clearly a better choice then surely you can explain why?

Are we talking the sort of rifles most people carry in North America - stuff in the 243win through 300mag range? Or do you only mean big stuff like 375s and up?

 

[Brobee]

In a pinch you can launch your non lethals from a 26.5mm flare gun keeping your shotgun ready with slugs if needed.

https://imgur.com/kDMw2sA

Am SUPER-INTERESTED in what looks to be your 3D printed sights strapped to your flare pistol...did you make those yourself? If not, would you mind sharing via PM where they came from? I have a Yugo flare pistol I'd love to get a set made for, and how cool would that be to take out on a spring-bear-deterrent hunt for a Brobee223 video project? Would have to think about the Fish and Wildlife legalities of something like that....

Edited to add…the more I think about my proposed adventure above, the more I realize what a bad idea it is…was fun to daydream about for a bit!

 

[geologist]

Am SUPER-INTERESTED in what looks to be your 3D printed sights strapped to your flare pistol...did you make those yourself? If not, would you mind sharing via PM where they came from? I have a Yugo flare pistol I'd love to get a set made for, and how cool would that be to take out on a spring-bear-deterrent hunt for a Brobee223 video project? Would have to think about the Fish and Wildlife legalities of something like that....

Edited to add…the more I think about my proposed adventure above, the more I realize what a bad idea it is…was fun to think about for a bit!

I can't wait to see the fish cops reaction when I wear mine in the boat fishing. It's not a firearm sensu strictu so f*ck them.........

https://imgur.com/a/lG6NNoP

And legally we are required to have signalling devices on board, which is what it is.

https://imgur.com/ltpF3ad