It’s like everything else in this world. Default to the lowest common denominator. People can not control their grip. So the solution is to suggest people remove their thumb from the equation entirely.
The 375 Ruger
- Thread starter Gatehouse
- Start date
Jeez, bud, take a breath and calm down. There was no personal affront intended, and I don't know how you managed to take it that way. I certainly didn't imply that either one of us was an expert, or claimed to be.
I have indeed "bothered to look"...I do a lot of shooting, and I read about it a lot. I've tried most new ideas as I came across them, liked some, didn't like others. I know that this grip is taught at "the highest levels", but when somebody is making money by running a course or a shooting school...just like when somebody is selling any kind of product...I don't automatically believe what they tell me. I need to try it out and see for myself.
Progress...change for the sake of improvement...is wonderful. But change for the sake of change is not progress, it's just change. An experienced teacher will show you something, and will tell you that it might be helpful...under certain circumstances...for you. He doesn't just say "This is better; the other way is wrong!" An experienced student will understand the difference.
Shoulder your rifle, sight down the barrel, and move your thumb back and forth between the two positions. Can you honestly sat there is a difference in muscle tension? If there is, it is...for me...increased with the thumb in what you call the side-thumb position. And as stated above, when I am shooting a gun that wants to go backward when the bullet goes forward, then I will grip it in such a way as to control it best. That means holding it like a human, not a raccoon.
This isn't a rant; a difference of opinion is simply a debate, not an argument. No need to get bent out of shape because somebody disagrees with you...or with your internet heroes. Cheers!
If you got your Chicken Wing fully extended the traditional thumb over grip feels fine, and as you point out a thumb forward position feels awkward..... this all changes when you reduce the elevation of your elbow.
At the end of the day everyone needs to play around a bit and find their sweet spot, personally I have no problem trail carrying and bringing the rifle up as I shift into a firing grip with the thumb forward without even thinking about it... it's automatic to how I shoot and the difference in wrist tension is night and day with the wing down.
Another variable is the angle of the shoulders to the target, but when hunting you might have to make a quick shot standing on uneven ground with obstacles that requires shifting things around from an ideal stance... it's good to be adaptable in the field and able to make shots from different perspectives and conditions.
As John mentions, another bonus of thumb forward is it helps people with big noses and a poorly setup rifle avoid creeping forward on their stock and thumbing their nose on ignition.....
A more squared stance vs bladed will also help the guys with big noses if they insist on shooting with their Chicken Wing extended and using a traditional thumb over bayonet hold....
A more squared stance vs bladed will also help the guys with big noses if they insist on shooting with their Chicken Wing extended and using a traditional thumb over bayonet hold....
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I've never tried a 375 Ruger, but I'd start with what ever felt like the best hold possible for the first shot and adjust from there.....
Do they kick more then a 12G heavy slug?
I didn't realize thumbs forward was a trend based on people's inability to control their grip.... I just started doing it naturally over the years to reduce strain in my wrist, specially with straight stocked lever actions... the stock design and shape of the pistol grip itself will also guide where and how I hold a gun in the firing position.
I could see where a guy in the trenches would just want one solid hold for everything from running carry with bayonets fixed and then shooting rapidly under stress without changing grips.... it's not hard to throw up the chicken wing to ease the wrist strain in a WW II Combat roll.
Not only do I generally shoot thumb forward but on bolt actions I will often leave my thumb and first finger on the bolt ready to cycle the action again and use my middle finger on the trigger.... on some of my rifles this is a very nice shooting position for my right hand.
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Im running 84 gr of Hunter, behind a 300g Swift A-Frame, getting 2700fps on a 21" barrel. I had Corlanes rebarrel an old M77 Tang Safety Ruger to 21.5" and popped it in a Brown Precision stock I scored on this site for $50. Nice light (7.5lbs scoped) uber boomer
First time I heard of thumb forward was in some magazine like Guns & Ammo circa 1988. There was a well known gunwriter/police/military firearms trainer (forget who it was, exactly) discussing defensive shotgun shooting for 2 and 4 legged predators. He suggested thumb forward as a way to shoot when shooting heavy shotgun loads. He was suggesting thumb on tang safety like on a Mossberg 590, so you could both snap off the safety and shoot without shifting your thumb grip, thereby being faster and less likely to bonk your nose with your thumb. So various forms of it have been around for a long time.
The reason most people use thumb forward with a rifle is to reduce movement of the rifle and scope when operating the bolt and at the same time increase bolt manipulation speed. There is no question that the technique accomplishes both objectives when shooting moderate recoiling rifles from a supported position.
The reason most people use thumb forward with a rifle is to reduce movement of the rifle and scope when operating the bolt and at the same time increase bolt manipulation speed. There is no question that the technique accomplishes both objectives when shooting moderate recoiling rifles from a supported position.
Completely different type of recoil that a 3" 12 gauge magnum slug. I would say the heavy 12 gauge loads probably have more peak force, but the 375 has a long deep recoil.I've never tried a 375 Ruger, but I'd start with what ever felt like the best hold possible for the first shot and adjust from there.....
Do they kick more then a 12G heavy slug?
The 375 is pretty easy to shoot, although mine is 9lbs~ and my 12 gauge is about 5lbs...
One of my favorite calibers, been shooting the 235 grain Barnes at 3100fps and the 350 grain woodleighs at 2500fps. It's nothing fancy, just a savage 110 bear hunter, the newer version with the accustock. But it is extremely accurate with 235, 250, 270, and 350 grain bullets.
Thanks for the insight DS.
The weight helps for sure, but a nice long deep pulse is also a nice characteristic for heavier recoiling guns... part of what I love about .45ACP is the recoil pulse and I've shot different semi auto .223's with different designs that were also night and day due to the stroke of their pistons and the design..... not that .223 is hard hitting but the pulse difference was quite obvious.
Recoil pulse, or the velocity of the recoil has to be the worst thing about being able to handle recoil. I have larger magnums and guns burning over a hundred grains of powder with heavy bullets, and they aren't too bad to shoot.
I have a cheap lightweight 7mm WSM that came with that nice "'hockey puck" recoil pad, and that thing is impossible to shoot. I can only handle 3 rounds of it, and it bruises the crap out of me with any bench shooting no matter how it's held. Offhand is quite controllable though. I changed out the recoil pad, and it's night and day difference. I can shoot dozens of rounds through it with no pain, it still kicks and bucks like a mule, but I'm able to shoot groups with it from a bench.
Currently inletting a different stock I had to use for it that should suit it perfectly, slightly heavier, and straight line recoil. An old Mossberg MVP 223 stock I got for a few bucks, lots of work to convert it over, but it's turning out good.
I have a cheap lightweight 7mm WSM that came with that nice "'hockey puck" recoil pad, and that thing is impossible to shoot. I can only handle 3 rounds of it, and it bruises the crap out of me with any bench shooting no matter how it's held. Offhand is quite controllable though. I changed out the recoil pad, and it's night and day difference. I can shoot dozens of rounds through it with no pain, it still kicks and bucks like a mule, but I'm able to shoot groups with it from a bench.
Currently inletting a different stock I had to use for it that should suit it perfectly, slightly heavier, and straight line recoil. An old Mossberg MVP 223 stock I got for a few bucks, lots of work to convert it over, but it's turning out good.
Guys who shoot rifles for a living, and those that teach them to do so, aren’t running some course or shooting school. They are being paid by your tax dollars. Again, if you had bothered to look, you would know this. It clearly isn’t some fad created on the internet, but hey, it sounds better and is easier to dismiss that way. Internet heroes? Laughable. Nothing from that position ever originated from the internet. Just deal with facts instead of pretend. It’s much easier to keep straight.Jeez, bud, take a breath and calm down. There was no personal affront intended, and I don't know how you managed to take it that way. I certainly didn't imply that either one of us was an expert, or claimed to be.
I have indeed "bothered to look"...I do a lot of shooting, and I read about it a lot. I've tried most new ideas as I came across them, liked some, didn't like others. I know that this grip is taught at "the highest levels", but when somebody is making money by running a course or a shooting school...just like when somebody is selling any kind of product...I don't automatically believe what they tell me. I need to try it out and see for myself.
Progress...change for the sake of improvement...is wonderful. But change for the sake of change is not progress, it's just change. An experienced teacher will show you something, and will tell you that it might be helpful...under certain circumstances...for you. He doesn't just say "This is better; the other way is wrong!" An experienced student will understand the difference.
Shoulder your rifle, sight down the barrel, and move your thumb back and forth between the two positions. Can you honestly sat there is a difference in muscle tension? If there is, it is...for me...increased with the thumb in what you call the side-thumb position. And as stated above, when I am shooting a gun that wants to go backward when the bullet goes forward, then I will grip it in such a way as to control it best. That means holding it like a human, not a raccoon.
This isn't a rant; a difference of opinion is simply a debate, not an argument. No need to get bent out of shape because somebody disagrees with you...or with your internet heroes. Cheers!
It’s fairly obvious where your thumb spends most of its time, so just keep it there. It obviously fits.
And yes, cheers!
R.
thewoodsrunner
Member
Heads up to those considering this calibre. I understand the .375 Ruger was intended as an improvement over the .375 H&H. Certainly the numbers were bumped and the action shortened but considerably over a century's worth of data suggests no improvement was needed. The velocity was made higher where there was zero need for higher velocity and in fact, there are plenty of situations where an increase in velocity is not an improvement but a detriment. With the higher velocity came more kick. Maybe there are those who believe more recoil in a .375 offers an improvement, but i bet there ain't many. I'm thinking now of Kevin Robertson and a crew of other pros taking a .375 Ruger Hawkeye rifle through its paces in Africa. The verdict from these pros who shoot heavy rifles all year long? An absolutely ghastly rifle to shoot, so much recoil in the underweight gun with its thin buttpad they gave up the test. By which point the stock tang was cracked and they were running into problems with bullets in the bottom of the magazine having been jarred back in the cases, compressing loads. That said, there are plenty out there whom you will never convince that more isn't always better. We live in an age of reduced seasons and degraded hunting opportunities in most places. Hunters need something to do in their downtime and so one of the things we do is invent all sorts of new gear that there was never a need for.
the advantages of a rimless beltless case are pretty well known
if its apples to apples, rifle design has more to do with felt recoil than the cartridge does
...................................................................................................................................free recoil energy ft/lbs.....recoil vel..........................avg. bult wgt.......avg muz vel.....
does anyone even build an action like the old Mauser Magnum size and weight?. There would be no reason at all to shun a 375 Ruger in a 10 lb rifle with a proper stock
if its apples to apples, rifle design has more to do with felt recoil than the cartridge does
...................................................................................................................................free recoil energy ft/lbs.....recoil vel..........................avg. bult wgt.......avg muz vel.....
.375 Ruger | 41.67 | 16.06 | 293 | 2,713 |
| .375 H&H Magnum | 38.28 | 15.39 | 293 | 2,650 |
| .338 RUM | 37.8 | 15.46 | 256 | 2,872 |
does anyone even build an action like the old Mauser Magnum size and weight?. There would be no reason at all to shun a 375 Ruger in a 10 lb rifle with a proper stock
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If you are a handloader all of what you said is redundant. I can load my 375 Ruger to under the H&H velocity or over, and use it in a shorter actioned rifle, with a inherently more accurate case design.
And if you are shooting lighter rounds for smaller game like any of the deer species we shoot and Canada, and use something like the 235 grain Barnes tsx like I do. You want all the velocity you can get with that bullet.
All the things you are quoting on the speed are focusing on mainly African game with heavy high sectional density rounds, and trying to get the most penetration posible for dangerous game. Which I agree, load your rifle to your desired velocity to get the effect you want. Or but a 375 H&H and use the factory rounds that are tried and true. It doesn't really matter. You are arguing about a velocity difference and recoil difference that can be achieved in a 375 H&H with modern powders if a person wanted. And you can load the Ruger quite a bit hotter than factory rounds as well, if you don't mind compressing loads a bit with reloder 26 powder or using 6.5 Staball and making loads that aren't published.
All said and done, get the rifle you want. But 375 Ruger is never a bad choice. It's actually a better choice if you reload and you can take full advantage of the cartridges abilities.
thewoodsrunner
Member
True! All true when you are a handloader indeed, in which case i'd suspect you are right, nothing wrong with the new Ruger whatsoever. I carry a classic ol' .375 H&H on account of the presence of griz (and a thing for tradition) and handload all rounds, paying close attention to loads and especially bullet quality. (I handload all rounds for all calibres i have.) I load 300 grainers for hunting everything, the bear presence again, i don't care about expansion in that gun and have never lost game. And I will say this to back up your point as well: i had a box of Federal 270 grain .375 H&H stashed away and shot them all in a quick session for practice, mostly offhand rapid cycling at a variety of placed targets. My shoulder took a real, unaccustomed beating shooting those 19 rounds (i saved one at the end.) There was actual bruising and I wondered what was going on, this has never been the case before with this rifle. When i got home i took my last round apart. I don't know what powder they use, but the case was packed to the gills with it, compressed so solid i needed to use a pick to loosen the mass, not just to start, but at intervals all down the case. I weighed it and it weighed absolute max load for that powder in my manual that required the most powder, none of the rest of the powders listed suggested such a big load. Totally unnecessary and totally unpleasant. So yeah, I hear you on handloading, good answer.
