winchester model 94 from 1907. Altered or original?

[TheCarpenter]

Hey gun nutz. I recently traded a cva 50 cal muzzleloader and scope and a canuck sentry 12 gauge for this pre 64, model 94 from 1907.

I'm not really overly versed in these older guns, but I can easily tell it's a pre 64.

It had a neat butt stock that was crescent shaped, and a half octagonal barrel which i like aesthetically and also think where it has more steel near receiver could handle faster shooting where it should heat up a bit slower, and a full mag tube.

My thoughts/questions for you more knowledgeable folks.

#1- I just measured the barrel and from muzzle to octagon is only 8.5" full barrel length to the receiver looks like 19 5/8. if they include threads into receiver than it's probably a factory 20" barrel I would think?

#2-if it's factory original, any value to this? I'll probably keep and use it as my main deer rifle (30-30) but curious if it's worth anything.

#3- I have to go confirm via benchrest shooting, but i just had 3 or 4 rounds with me so i lobbed them at 100 yards without being super serious about it, but I hit insanely high, like, 6 feet over the target and into the berm. I tried again half serious and thought i still hit like 3 or 4 feet high. again, i'll take more ammo out and see what happens but how do I adjust these marble sights for elevation? I see I can tap them left or right for windage but they don't have the elevator ramp i'm used to, they only seem to fold down and lay flat? I wouldn't trust aiming at a deers ankles to try and make a lungshot at 100 yards..

#4- the rear sight seems off kilter to the barrel, on a bit of an angle/off center so I have to tip to rifle to line it up with my eyes, if this makes sense. is there anything I can do about this? any reason for it? the rear sight seems centered on the octagonal barrel and doesn't look beat up.

#5- it seems to be missing a tang screw, does anyone know if all pre 64 have the same screws or where to get one for a model this early?

I want to restore this rifle and love it for another generation but it does seem easier to buy a new gun ready to roll.


Thanks gunners!

Carpenter

 

[struff55]

the bbl has been cut it should be 26" the crown is the first give away it should be flat across the face no big deal if you get it to shoot it's a good shooter if not it's a wall hanger
if it shoots
700-800$ gun if it doesn't a parts gun

 

[wasrupzuk]

I’m just guessing but if they used the original sights it could partially explain why it’s hitting so high with the 6” shorter barrel.
You could either find a set of 20” carbine sights or a tang mounted peep site.
I would think either would fix your POI.

 

[kamlooky]

Someone owes you an “E”.

 

[Dosing]

Just gonna say that I like it.

 

[9.3mauser]

That one kind of makes me want to cry. The half round/half octagonal barrel would have brought a premium if everything else had been original. If the sights seem off kilter, the barrel may have been over or under torqued when it was taken off for shortening. A taller front sight should lower your poi.

 

[TheCarpenter]

ugh. my gut told me something was wrong but I didn't know enough about it. Very obvious now. i'm not loosing sleep over my muzzle loader CVA and canuck being gone, but would of rathered the money for them now to put towards something else.

For the carbine sights, I would be looking for any 3/8 dovetail carbine sight? or do I need one with a specific thread etc where it has a set screw on the front sight?

 

[fingers284]

Cant see one reason to be bummed about that trade, for $450 value in the old guns you traded up to a 7-$900 "deer hunter" is a trade I'll make every day.
That recessed crown might also signify a barrel liner might have been installed. The missing tang screw is just a blind screw for the hole where a tang sight would be installed...no issue to its missing at all in the function of the rifle.
The "shooting really really high is easily fixed with a taller front sight blade, 10 min job to complete.

 

[Valiant]

ugh. my gut told me something was wrong but I didn't know enough about it. Very obvious now. i'm not loosing sleep over my muzzle loader CVA and canuck being gone, but would of rathered the money for them now to put towards something else.

For the carbine sights, I would be looking for any 3/8 dovetail carbine sight? or do I need one with a specific thread etc where it has a set screw on the front sight?

You need a lower rear sight or a taller front sight. Just plug the extra hole in your tang with a flush hole plug screw and some lock tight. That or mount a tang sight to cover the hole. Tang sight like lyman or marbles should allow you to hit point of aim at 100 yards.
Its a nice shooter. You bought it for you. Not for some collector Enjoy it.

 

[Mike Webb]

An adjustable rear sight would help and taller front. Barrel is cut as noted but still handy hunting rifle. Looks almost like dovetail for front sight was filed deeper than factory maybe just the photo. Front looks like original number 21 Winchester sight. Worth $100 or more if not dicked with. You could trade it for an adjustable rear then buy a tall front sight.

 

[fat tony]

I saw a rifle of similar form factor (early 20th century Winchesrer 1894 with carbine length half octagon barrel), but it was in .32 Winchester Special. This was not long ago. Kind of odd coincidence. . .

 

[Potashminer]

Sort of several things you could do - depends how "red neck" you are willing to be.

If the rifle is chambered in 30-30, and you have cleaned the bore - you will likely find that different brands of ammo throw different bullets to different places - 150 grain and 170 grain seem most common with 30-30 - so Winchester brand, Remington brand, Federal brand might throw their loads left / right / up / down for you. No doubt you will want to set up on sandbags and take at least three careful shots to know where it is shooting now.

I think the Marble rear sight had a looseneable insert that could slide up or down - maybe it is down all the way now - here is where the "red neck" kicks in - remove that thing completely from the rear sight body - file away more off its bottom so that the thing can go lower. It is also known to use a soldering torch and add a bead of solder on top of your front sight. I think you can go to Brownells or other websites and find a "sight conversion" chart, or do the trig yourself - the desired group change at 3600 inches is the same ratio as the adjustment required for your sights. Assume you want to lower your group 60" at 100 yards away. Assume that your sights on the rifle are about 26" apart - that will mean that you want the rear sight to go down a bit more than 0.4" or your front sight to go up that much, or some combination of both to get that difference from now. It might also be possible to file on the top of the rear sight groove, to get your rifle hitting lower when your front and rear sight are"lined up". I can not do the math for you - I may have made error and I do not have your rifle in hand to measure the distance from rear sight to front sight - go slow, and then fire - see if the group is heading in correct direction and how far did it go. But, it all sort of starts with where are you now - do you know that for sure, and what brand ammo are you going to get and what weight bullet?

You might want to think in "olden days" there were blank rear sights - you had to file a groove to get the bullet to hit where you were aiming - is sort of what you need to do on that rifle, I think.

 

[fat tony]

I've read things that advise the rifle should be shouldered comfortably and a dummy front sight should be tried out until the ergonomics are natural with the eye at a comfortable level with your cheek weld with the front sight approximately on target. This sets the permanent front sight height. The rear sight height is then calculated to give your hunting zero.

Hopefully properly indexing the barrel is an easy fix.

It is a way to approach it.

 

[hayfield]

If you can get into a George Maddis Winchchester book - that might help

 

[boxhitch]

6 ft high is pretty extreme, even for hot loads. you may have to run some heavies at near black powder speeds, certainly something below 1500 maybe? w.a.g. Guessing your test loads were modern hunting rounds?

Marbles had some odd sights in the early days, which leads to how these mods to your rifle may have been done some time ago
Too bad the rear is not clocked correctly but does it line up with the front, on the same plane?
maybe an elevator like this would fit


It may not be what you envisioned for a hunting rifle, but could easily be exchanged for $$$.00

 

[Potashminer]

Do not expect that old lever action rifle to be target quality - although it might be, with today's ammo - do not expect 1" 3 shot groups - probably be happy if you can put three holes into a three inch group (cover with palm of your hand) at 100 yards, from a sandbag. Do not be overly surprised if it takes two hands to cover the holes - probably a 5 or 8 MOA rifle at 100 yards will kill deer just fine - I am sure I have taken deer with far worse than that.

So, do not think you can "save ammo", until you have some notion of how tight that thing will shoot with that ammo. Assume that you have an 8 MOA combination - so is that one hole a high one, a low one or what? So always work to groups, until you have a sense of how "accurate" your outfit is. You will be trying to "sight in" the centre of your group - not a particular bullet hole.