Opinion: Buying philosophy for optics

ApexLTD

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Hi all,

I'm at a roadblock and would love some opinions/thoughts/direction from those with more experience. Here's a quick overview of the situation:
  • purchased a Tikka T3X CTR in .223 to learn how to shoot, own/maintain a gun, etc.
    • I have no attachments yet - just a cable lock, a rifle bag, and hearing protection
  • will eventually buy another bolt action in a larger calibre for longer distances but that will be a whole separate build
    • will still keep this Tikka so friends/family who want to try shooting, etc.
  • most often shooting up to 200 yards but will eventually try to find places to shoot further distances
  • lean more towards buy once, cry once
There are so many optics to choose from but I am stuck between going low budget and getting a rifle that will be fine up to 200 yards or spend a little more to shoot say 500 yards.

Would I be better off getting a mid tier scope for the off chance that I shoot further than 200 yards or save that money and spend elsewhere?

Any recommendations on optics + rings combos would be appreciated!
 
You will never regret spending extra money on good glass! When you get tired of this gun and your scope is good enough, it can be switched to the new rifle. Good glass is easy to sell if the need arises. Some say, if possible, the scope should be worth what the gun is (give or take). I follow that advice and have never regretted it.

There are deals to be had. However, in general you get what you pay for.

For that rifle a Zeiss V4 or used Conquest HD…something with max magnification of ~20X would be my recommendation for up to 500 yds.
 
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We can list price tiers of optics. In each tier, there are one or two clear winners for best scope for the kind of shooting you are doing.

So, what price tiers are you interested in?
 
You will never regret spending extra money on good glass! When you get tired of this gun and your scope is good enough, it can be switched to the new rifle. Good glass is easy to sell if the need arises. Some say, if possible, the scope should be worth what the gun is (give or take). I follow that advice and have never regretted it.

There are deals to be had. However, in general you get what you pay for.

For that rifle a Zeiss V4 or used Conquest HD…something with max magnification of ~20X would be my recommendation for up to 500 yds.
I've also seen the idea of buying a scope equal to ~the price of the rifle - which I'm not opposed to doing but I have zero clue if a $1500 scope is necessary to shoot out to 500 yards. Also, I wouldn't be moving this scope to the new rifle since I'd want to keep this build all together as a ready to shoot gun for friends/family, etc.

I say 3-15 sfp of some sort. Mid tier vortex... But ask the AI you used to write this post. You'd be surprised how detailed of an answer you'll get from it.
Mid tier Vortex is like a Diamondback Tactical? I already did some research on Plex but I do value member feedback more. Plex compared the Diamondback to the Athlon Ares and Arken SH-4. I guess my post sounded like AI because that's kind of how I prompted Plex to do a search for me haha

Edit: Also, Plex puts both the Ares which is double the price of the Diamondback in the same "mid tier" optic category so I definitely want to double check with everyone.
We can list price tiers of optics. In each tier, there are one or two clear winners for best scope for the kind of shooting you are doing.

So, what price tiers are you interested in?
Personally, I think the max I'd be comfortable would be how much I spent on the Tikka so about $1500, but again - I'm trying to see if we think a $500 - $700 scope is already sufficient for shooting at the range mostly to 200 yards (maybe out to 500 or so if I can find somewhere nearby to shoot that far).
 
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Few follow up questions:
Is it only being shot off the bench? Obviously weight will play a factor.

Ffp or sfp?

Mils or moa?

Bench optics with pretty decent glass imho:
I do all my shopping off the Equipment exchange because I hate paying government theft. Personally I dont mind a bump or safe bruise here or there so long as the glass is untouched, so most of my options will come from what I have seen price wise there:

Bushnell hdmr2/3
Athlon ares btr 4.5-27 or somewhere in there
Nightforce nxs 5.5-22 SFP can be found on the ee for around $1600-$1900. This is a lot of scope for the $$
Burris xtr 3
Meopta (paul @ bushcraft canada has a pretty good stock of these)
Sightron s3 might be an option as well

Arkens ep5 etc are nice glass, although heavy and very large.

Personally I’d avoid the vortex venom, strike eagle line. Viper is pretty decent. Although personally I don’t like the “cheaper” vortex lines.
 
I have zero clue if a $1500 scope is necessary to shoot out to 500 yards.

No it's not necessary. Some people shoot 500+ with iron sights.

But what is necessary is rarely the primary factor when it comes to gun stuff. "Buy once, Cry once" is always good advice with optics. Figure out what your max budget is, and then ask for suggestions around that price point.

You say you want to keep this rifle together as a package, but I wouldn't be too fixated on that. You can always buy something else for this rifle, and if the 223 will be your loaner/ family rifle then you might be fine with a relatively cheaper scope on it while you move your "good" scope to a new rifle.


Last, keep in mind that a 223 can hit stuff at much further ranges than 500m. It's not the IDEAL choice for 1000m, but it will get you there. Jerry at Mystic Precision took his 223 to a mile.
 
Hi all,

I'm at a roadblock and would love some opinions/thoughts/direction from those with more experience. Here's a quick overview of the situation:
  • purchased a Tikka T3X CTR in .223 to learn how to shoot, own/maintain a gun, etc.
    • I have no attachments yet - just a cable lock, a rifle bag, and hearing protection
  • will eventually buy another bolt action in a larger calibre for longer distances but that will be a whole separate build
    • will still keep this Tikka so friends/family who want to try shooting, etc.
  • most often shooting up to 200 yards but will eventually try to find places to shoot further distances
  • lean more towards buy once, cry once
There are so many optics to choose from but I am stuck between going low budget and getting a rifle that will be fine up to 200 yards or spend a little more to shoot say 500 yards.

Would I be better off getting a mid tier scope for the off chance that I shoot further than 200 yards or save that money and spend elsewhere?

Any recommendations on optics + rings combos would be appreciated!
Since this is your first rifle, I highly recommend a high value optic.

The Arken EPL-4 (either the 4-16x or the 6-24x) both will easily get you to 500 yards... but the 6-24x will help you shoot tighter groups. I have 4 of these optics and they have been fantastic. The Japanese glass is outstanding, the reticles are really really good, and the features are competitive with anything costing 2-5x as much. Pair the optic with a set of Monstrum Pro Series 7075 Aluminum Scope Rings, and you will have a setup that is 80-90% as effective as anything on the market for the shooting you describe for $700.

For reference... here is my wife's Tikka CTR (in 223) with the exact setup. I also have a similar setup on my 6.5... and both our T1x.

IMG_2810.jpeg
IMG_2812.jpeg
IMG_2811.jpeg
 
You don't need to spend more on optic to shoot farther.
In the mid tier, I love Arken, any EPL4 or EP5 depending if you will hunt or just target shoot. I have 4 and they serve me very well. The EP5 is not far back of my vortex Razor.
 
There are a short list of great scopes in the $900 price range. Above this is a gap where there is nothing better until you spend $2200. So don't be tricked into thinking some scope you find at $1400 is better than the $900 group I'm about to list.

In no particular order
  • FALCON OPTICS ENDURA S30i+ 3-30x56i FFP ED - MIL @ Shooting Warehouse
  • DNT Optics THE ONE 7-35x56 Illuminated TOR FFP @ various Canadian retailers
  • ARKEN OPTICS EP-5 GEN II (7-35X56) FFP @ various Canadian retailers
  • Bushnell Match Pro ED 5-30x56 @ various Canadian retailers
 
Hi all,

I'm at a roadblock and would love some opinions/thoughts/direction from those with more experience. Here's a quick overview of the situation:
  • purchased a Tikka T3X CTR in .223 to learn how to shoot, own/maintain a gun, etc.
    • I have no attachments yet - just a cable lock, a rifle bag, and hearing protection
  • will eventually buy another bolt action in a larger calibre for longer distances but that will be a whole separate build
    • will still keep this Tikka so friends/family who want to try shooting, etc.
  • most often shooting up to 200 yards but will eventually try to find places to shoot further distances
  • lean more towards buy once, cry once
There are so many optics to choose from but I am stuck between going low budget and getting a rifle that will be fine up to 200 yards or spend a little more to shoot say 500 yards.

Would I be better off getting a mid tier scope for the off chance that I shoot further than 200 yards or save that money and spend elsewhere?

Any recommendations on optics + rings combos would be appreciated!
Go with good optics, because even on the close distance good glass is easier on eyes. Vortex Venom is a good middle ground. Have it on my Howa and very happy.
 
For what you're wanting the arken epl4 4-16 ffp would be a great option around $500. The glass is fine and they dial reliably. Also the resale is good if you decide it isnt for you.
Thanks for the recommendation! I'm starting to see Arken pop up as a solid choice for quite a few members.
Few follow up questions:
Is it only being shot off the bench? Obviously weight will play a factor.

Ffp or sfp?

Mils or moa?

Bench optics with pretty decent glass imho:
I do all my shopping off the Equipment exchange because I hate paying government theft. Personally I dont mind a bump or safe bruise here or there so long as the glass is untouched, so most of my options will come from what I have seen price wise there:

Bushnell hdmr2/3
Athlon ares btr 4.5-27 or somewhere in there
Nightforce nxs 5.5-22 SFP can be found on the ee for around $1600-$1900. This is a lot of scope for the $$
Burris xtr 3
Meopta (paul @ bushcraft canada has a pretty good stock of these)
Sightron s3 might be an option as well

Arkens ep5 etc are nice glass, although heavy and very large.

Personally I’d avoid the vortex venom, strike eagle line. Viper is pretty decent. Although personally I don’t like the “cheaper” vortex lines.
Yes, off the bench at the range - no plans for hunting. FFP and MIL. Agreed with EE, especially if I can get better glass for how much I'd spend retail for on a lower model. Thank you for insight!
Since this is your first rifle, I highly recommend a high value optic.

The Arken EPL-4 (either the 4-16x or the 6-24x) both will easily get you to 500 yards... but the 6-24x will help you shoot tighter groups. I have 4 of these optics and they have been fantastic. The Japanese glass is outstanding, the reticles are really really good, and the features are competitive with anything costing 2-5x as much. Pair the optic with a set of Monstrum Pro Series 7075 Aluminum Scope Rings, and you will have a setup that is 80-90% as effective as anything on the market for the shooting you describe for $700.

For reference... here is my wife's Tikka CTR (in 223) with the exact setup. I also have a similar setup on my 6.5... and both our T1x.
Looks good! Any reason you went with those rings instead of Arken rings? I always think going with pairs that are from the same brand comes with benefits but that could false for guns/optics.
There are a short list of great scopes in the $900 price range. Above this is a gap where there is nothing better until you spend $2200. So don't be tricked into thinking some scope you find at $1400 is better than the $900 group I'm about to list.

In no particular order
  • FALCON OPTICS ENDURA S30i+ 3-30x56i FFP ED - MIL @ Shooting Warehouse
  • DNT Optics THE ONE 7-35x56 Illuminated TOR FFP @ various Canadian retailers
  • ARKEN OPTICS EP-5 GEN II (7-35X56) FFP @ various Canadian retailers
  • Bushnell Match Pro ED 5-30x56 @ various Canadian retailers
Thank you for the list!

In general, thank you all for your input. I'll keep me eye peeled to see if I can grab an Arken EP5 from EE or if it goes on sale from a retailer.
 
Looks good! Any reason you went with those rings instead of Arken rings? I always think going with pairs that are from the same brand comes with benefits but that could false for guns/optics.

Nothing wrong with the Arken rings, however the Montrum are 1/2 the price and have the same features, materials and workmanship. If i was setting up one rifle, maybe no big deal.. but when you set up 4... it adds up. Also the Montrum have great attention to detail... little things like the torque specs engraved into the rings and oversized fasteners.
 
In general, thank you all for your input. I'll keep me eye peeled to see if I can grab an Arken EP5 from EE or if it goes on sale from a retailer.
Just be aware the EP-5 weighs a full pound more (has a big impact on balance) than the EPL-4 and is much larger. Not so big a deal off the bench, however you will need a cheek riser to get proper cheek weld once mounted on a rifle like the CTR. As for used, or a sale... the margin on the EPL is so low, they do not go on sale very often (like never), likely the next import into Canada will see prices rise if Arken Global is any indicator. You can get an EPL-4 for $525-$575 (depending on model) tax in, delivered. IF you catch a sale, you might save $20.
 
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Just be aware the EP-5 weighs a full pound more (has a big impact on balance) than the EPL-4 and is much larger. Not so big a deal off the bench, however you will need a cheek riser to get proper cheek weld once mounted on a rifle like the CTR. As for used, or a sale... the margin on the EPL is so low, they do not go on sale very often (like never), likely the next import into Canada will see prices rise if Arken Global is any indicator. You can get an EPL-4 for $525-$575 (depending on model) tax in, delivered. IF you catch a sale, you might save $20.
Ah ok thanks for the heads up! I was going to run a sale history on it to see but you saved me the research. I'll shop around just to compare prices from a few retailers and go ahead with the purchase. I can't quote in your message about the Montrum rings and they do sound like a great set of rings - especially small details the torque specs being etched into them.
Shooting from abench and prone, weight is a good thing. Buy once and cry once is excellent advice as well as buying used to move a huge step forward in better glass. Some great deals can usually be found on the EE.
Agreed! I'm not in a huge rush so I'll see how long I can hold out on buy a new EP5 in case something solid comes up on EE.
 
When it comes to optics, buy the best you can afford!
As mentioned above you'll not regret it long term, and your buy once, cry once thought is on target (pun intended!).
The old rule was spend as much non the scope as the rifle, but you do not always have to...as some of the scopes out there in the $700+ cost range are quite good and will provide you with years of quality service. E.g., older Leupold VX-3 line, or newer VX-3HD line, Trijicon AccuPoint line

Yes, there are some great deals by buying used optics. Just be aware that no all manufacturers have the same warranties as others. Buy from someone you know, or from someone with a good trader rating, whether it be on the EE here, or on #######.

My philosophy if you will, is to buy quality glass that is lightweight, rugged, reliable and bright, and provides me with good low light transmission as I am a hunter first.

Some thoughts to consider in purchasing decision:
1) You are mostly shooting from the bench at a range with your Tikka, out to 200 yards, so weight is not a huge factor, but on a trim rifle like the Tikka, a large heavy scope is neither needed, and will throw off the balance and handling for when you do want to learn to shoot offhand. Try to keep it under 22 oz. 16 oz is even better. And objective lense size will affect weight and balance of the firearm. 40-44mm is plenty, and does not get as easily bumped out of alignment whether in transit or while hunting/shooting. 50mm+ objectives can be more prone to this. Mount them in a set of Talley lightweight rings and bases. If you are needing help. most gun stores will do this for you at the time of purchase, and ensure that your ring height will suit your personal cheek weld, eye relief, and scope clearances.
2) As for FFP vs SFP, you won't need a FFP scope for your purposes, and it will be easier to learn to shoot at the closer distances, across the spectrum of magnification used in practicing out to the 200 yard targets. Only lower power settings in a FFP scope, the reticle shrinks and is very hard to see and aim with.
3) As for magnification, a 3-9x40 or 3.5-10x40 will suffice, but if you want to see those little .224" bullet holes better with your scope at 100 and 200 yards, then a 4-12x40 or 3-15x44 may be a better option, if you do not have a spotting scope for checking targets and group sizing.
4) Warranties vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Leupold is a lifetime warranty, regardless if you are the first owner or 20th. And their warranty centre is in Okotoks Alberta, with customer service being quick and easy. In 36 years of owning their products, I have only used the warranty service twice, and for times when I fell and bashed the scope into some rocks. The longest turnaround was 12 days, including shipping by Canada Post both ways (and I only paid for mailing one way), and the scopes were repaired, cleaned, and back on my rifle.
There is a reason that Vortex has an over the counter replacement warranty! They needed it. Hopefully things have gotten better over the years, aswe shipped cases of their scopes back to them in the early years from the LGS I worked at, but I wouldn't own one myself.

As for good glass, the scopes that I have used, own and trust include: Leupold, Swarovski, Kahles, and Trijicon.
I am interested in Zeiss and Leica, as a good friend has had good success with their scopes over the years, and I have been happy with my Geovid RF binos. I just know I was not happy with their older Conquest scopes assembled in the US, but want to try their newer V4 scope.

Hope this helps.
Good luck in your quest!
 
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I'm trying to see if we think a $500 - $700 scope is already sufficient for shooting at the range mostly to 200 yards (maybe out to 500 or so
Price has no bearing on how far you can shoot with a particular optic. You don't spend more to shoot further. I used a $400 scope at 2000 yds.


Ffp or sfp?

Mils or moa?
The majority of people don't understand what uses FFP and SFP are best suited for.

MIL vs MOA makes no real difference as long as one understands what each click is worth and how the clicks relate to the reticle.


FFP and MIL.
Why? Do you understand the differences and effects of each of those choices?

SFP is the better choice for range shooting. MOA is probably slightly easier for a newbie because you just have to be able to think in inches. Also the clicks are slightly finer.


As for FFP vs SFP, you won't need a FFP scope for your purposes, and it will be easier to learn to shoot at the closer distances, across the spectrum of magnification used in practicing out to the 200 yard targets. Only lower power settings in a FFP scope, the reticle shrinks and is very hard to see and aim with.
FINALLY, someone who understands the difference and what works better for what application. So many people have no clue and simply parrot one or the other because they heard it on the internets. Well said Sir.
 
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