Copper Bullet Ring

W

wallz

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Well, this one really has me stumped, and don't even know what to tag it as.

This is a straight wall 45 Raptor. Basically a 460 rebated rim, VERY close to the 450 BM, so the brass headspaces on the case mouth against the chamber step.

No problem setting up the barrel to headspace properly, with the go gauge. So issues as I also have a 450BM so know how to slight roll crimp them properly to still headspace on the chamber step.

BUT, here is the problem. I'm getting a copper bullet ring right on that chamber step after each firing. I had about 12 rounds through this barrel, it is a used barrel, but no issues with it, as I did clean and scope it before use. This ring prevents the next round from seating properly so I cannot close the bolt. The first 12 rounds were no issues.

The first time it happened I was like WTF??? I thought it was my brass, so started to measure the 1st time shot brass and it was coming up a bit short: new brass 1.790" and 1st time shot brass was measuring 1.783". Once full sized the brass was actually coming in a bit long and needed a trim back down to 1.790", so I know it is not the brass.

Now all I can get is one firing and there is a copper ring left on the chamber step. I tried to adjust the headspace tighter, figuring that would cure the issue, and not give any room for the brass ring to attach to, but it didn't help.
Pictures attached of tight chamber brass, copper bullet, the ring and unfired loaded. I did pull a few bullets to get an idea of crimp size figuring I might be distorting the bullet and that is creating the ring, but there is only a slight crimp mark. Remember I also shoot the 450BM and never an issue with it.

Basically I have to take off the barrel to be able to get at the ring to pull it out. Some have been coming out easy and others were a bit of work, but have been able to remove them so far.

I am totally baffled with this one! Anyone have any ideas for me to try?
 

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Few more pics with a bit of size for context.

That is a 1/8" bit with the rings. Pic of one side, then flipped over and other side. New brass next to once fired.

One side of the rings def look raged, and the other side smoother. Like it is shearing off, but where? They def look like the copper bullet and not the brass, to me anyways.

None of the brass has any jagged edges once fired.

The bullets sit in the brass and they are easily dripping into the chamber, about .060" from lands, so no engagement until then. These are solid copper bullets, so I can't see the back expanding under the pressure of firing and shearing off on the chamber edger, but this is exactly where each ring is found, and removed from.

I might have to keep the fired brass in the chamber and pull out the camera for a shot after the next firing, and see what may be going on, or at least get a pic before opening up the bolt.

Have some boat tail bullets on the way and try those. Maybe they are catching on the trailing edge, but I'm baffled as the bullets have a bit of chamfer on the back edge.

A closer look at the fired brass shows remnants of the roll crimp, so again the brass ring is just not showing, and pointing to the copper bullet.
 

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wallz said:
Well, this one really has me stumped, and don't even know what to tag it as.

This is a straight wall 45 Raptor. Basically a 460 rebated rim, VERY close to the 450 BM, so the brass headspaces on the case mouth against the chamber step.

No problem setting up the barrel to headspace properly, with the go gauge. So issues as I also have a 450BM so know how to slight roll crimp them properly to still headspace on the chamber step.

BUT, here is the problem. I'm getting a copper bullet ring right on that chamber step after each firing. I had about 12 rounds through this barrel, it is a used barrel, but no issues with it, as I did clean and scope it before use. This ring prevents the next round from seating properly so I cannot close the bolt. The first 12 rounds were no issues.

The first time it happened I was like WTF??? I thought it was my brass, so started to measure the 1st time shot brass and it was coming up a bit short: new brass 1.790" and 1st time shot brass was measuring 1.783". Once full sized the brass was actually coming in a bit long and needed a trim back down to 1.790", so I know it is not the brass.

Now all I can get is one firing and there is a copper ring left on the chamber step. I tried to adjust the headspace tighter, figuring that would cure the issue, and not give any room for the brass ring to attach to, but it didn't help.
Pictures attached of tight chamber brass, copper bullet, the ring and unfired loaded. I did pull a few bullets to get an idea of crimp size figuring I might be distorting the bullet and that is creating the ring, but there is only a slight crimp mark. Remember I also shoot the 450BM and never an issue with it.

Basically I have to take off the barrel to be able to get at the ring to pull it out. Some have been coming out easy and others were a bit of work, but have been able to remove them so far.

I am totally baffled with this one! Anyone have any ideas for me to try?
Click to expand...
Have you checked to see if there is burr in the chamber at the shoulder? It might just need a quick polish to solve the bullet shaving issue.
 
Bizarre! The most reasonable explanation is the burr at the step in the chamber, but that burr would need to go all the way around... and that is a big chunk of copper!

Used barrel? The previous owner had the same issues? Did anyone go anywhere near it with a reamer recently?
If your cases are head spaced against the step there should not be any room to form that ring unless the cases are short or the case is backing out/compressing. But still does not explain material being shaved off the bullet - indicating the bullet is larger than the step.... in which case it looks like you should not be able to even chamber a round.

Have you tried an round without crimping it?
is a bullet a couple thou smaller an option?
Is the ring being formed when you chamber the round?

And your brass is coming out shorter after being fired?? what is your load, powder and primer?
 
Case length can be measured before and after firing.

Cases too short? Chamber too deep? That ring looks like it is taking up space that should be occupied by the case when it headspaces.

Leade cut too short?
 
I had the same thing with a RB 50-90 barrel, was rechambered from an original barrel with a home built reamer that didnt have the front radi' made the way it should (done by the previous owner), left a square cornered cut at the lands and that peeled lead the same as yours does with brass.
I had to make a "made to order" throater cutter to taper the chamber-to- lands transition and no more problems , the slug now is "swaged" to fit before entering lands instead of an abrupt edge that peels.
 
B_noser said:
Assume you are firing reloads. Are you chamfering the case mouth? the case might be shaving off a ring of copper as you seat the buller. The copper ring would then be left in the chamber upon firing.
Just thinking out loud here:)
Click to expand...
Yes reloads. No one in Canada makes 45 Raptor ammo.

mephisto002 said:
does it happen with other bullets as well?

how does it shoot ? group?
Click to expand...
Only bullet I have tried. I did order some others last night to try. Same bullet but with a boat tail design. Hoping that boat tail takes care of it as these bullets have been stellar in the 450BM. Been using them for 2 plus years.
Grouping was promising. I am just doing load testing to find max. Able to run them so far near 2260fps from a 16" barrel. I know it can be under 1" at 100m once I finish my loading.

sean69 said:
Bizarre! The most reasonable explanation is the burr at the step in the chamber, but that burr would need to go all the way around... and that is a big chunk of copper!

Used barrel? The previous owner had the same issues? Did anyone go anywhere near it with a reamer recently?
If your cases are head spaced against the step there should not be any room to form that ring unless the cases are short or the case is backing out/compressing. But still does not explain material being shaved off the bullet - indicating the bullet is larger than the step.... in which case it looks like you should not be able to even chamber a round.

Have you tried an round without crimping it?
is a bullet a couple thou smaller an option?
Is the ring being formed when you chamber the round?

And your brass is coming out shorter after being fired?? what is your load, powder and primer?
Click to expand...
I have taken pics of that area and there is no burr that is visible. I was able to run the first 12 shots without hiccup, then this started to happen.

Yes used barrel. I have since been in touch with him, and sent him some more details. See what he comes up with.

My thoughts as well. I on purpose made it headspace tight to try that theory. Brass tight to chamber shoulder and not leave room for the ring to form. Pic above of how tight I was. Did not make a difference.
Looking at the rings closer, they seem to be "cut off" and not "shaved" off like you would get from a burr. My thought.

Have not tried rounds without crimp. Have tried with slight crimp and several in between with heavy crimps. All same results, ring left in chamber.

No way to chamber a round and shave that ring off. I find my lands measurement by crimping the bullet proud, and chamber it, measure, back off, repeat. I'm about .060" off lands.

The brass does come out shorter than new after firing, but there is an expansion of it to chamber, so that makes sense. Once full length sized it actually come out slightly longer than new and I have to trim it down to fit the chamber.

CCI250 primer, lil gun powder. I hesitate to actually say powder wieghts, as I'm in no mans land with the 45 raptor. Basically a 460. But still below some published max loads for the 460. No ejector marks, and getting slight flattening of primers on some of the loads I have tried. Still room to push it, but gets annoying as I have to pull the barrel to pull the ring.


Lodi said:
Case length can be measured before and after firing.

Cases too short? Chamber too deep? That ring looks like it is taking up space that should be occupied by the case when it headspaces.

Leade cut too short?
Click to expand...

See pic above. I headspace it very tight, with a snug bolt drop on new brass, as pictured, and tried. Same ring.
 
Weird - weird - weird .... I even started sleuthing a bit - it seems that there are several posts on other sites from people with the same problem ... all report it is from one particular brand of bullet ... that I of course cannot find right now ... all the same 45 Raptor ....

lemme know the bullet - it will probably jangle some bells.

While you are at it, measure a couple of bullets my only guess right now is maybe they have a bulge at exactly the right spot???
 
sean69 said:
Weird - weird - weird .... I even started sleuthing a bit - it seems that there are several posts on other sites from people with the same problem ... all report it is from one particular brand of bullet ... that I of course cannot find right now ... all the same 45 Raptor ....

lemme know the bullet - it will probably jangle some bells.

While you are at it, measure a couple of bullets my only guess right now is maybe they have a bulge at exactly the right spot???
Click to expand...
I tend to agree about the bullet being the problem... over the chamber being the problem. I have never used solid copper bullets but I have never heard of a conventional bullet doing this.
 
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Barnes and Bear Creek are the bullet names that pop up repeatedly .... I am mystified.

Time to reach out to the bullet manufacturer..

Try a different brand? copper jacketed instead of copper? Is swaging an option?
 
hawk-i said:
Some facebook posts say its common when the base of the bullet used can't handle the pressure of the load. Try another brand of bullet.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/483423046019868/posts/1512174893144673/
Click to expand...


This is what I am currently coming to a conclusion to, as I have another person that suggested this.

They are the Barnes muzzle loader 290 Gr TEZ bullets. Obviously run without the sabot. These are know to be a bit softer, to expand at lower velocity in the muzzle loaders.

Remember, I have been running these in a 450 BM at 2260ish fps for a few years now with great results, and never this issue.

It seems that I am getting these rings at a lower range than I did on the 450BM. I had pushed 2300fps on the BM, and did not see any issues like this, and settled it down into a great performing speed at 2260fps.

It seems on the raptor I am getting issues in the 2200fps, checking back to my chrono data.

I have ordered some of the same 290 gr TMZ, boat tail design, as I figured that is is peeling the back of the bullet, that mushrooms a bit from the pressure, all within milliseconds. I'll see this week after I get them in how they perform. If I see the same issue, I have another option to try, if I can find them.

I use the 450BM for elk, moose the last few years, and it has performed well with the solid copper bullet. I think the longest was 245ish yrds, with a full pass through, found perfect mushroom on the off side, under the hide of a moose. Dropped before I reloaded.

I have also pushed a 300gr copper plated, cheap range fodder round in the 450BM at roughly 2300fps, and dozens of rounds, without an issue. I practiced the 450BM out to 500m on a regular basis. These were also flat base.

https://barnesbullets.com/50-cal-290-gr-spit-fire-t-ez-fb/

https://barnesbullets.com/50-cal-290-gr-spit-fire-tmz-bt/
 
brybenn said:
Anyway you could fire a bullet into something to try and recover it to see if the base or shank are cut
Click to expand...

I though of that, but don't really have anything that I could get away with using.

Next time at the range, if I'm alone, which many times I am, I might run down and try and dig one out of the berm. I know, not optimal, but no other options.
 
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