Would you consider bringing in Norinco 97 bullpups? (Part Deux)
- Thread starter Deckard
- Start date
Sorry, but that is pessimistic rubbish. The climate is completely different today.
....... and I hope that the ejection port is reversible but with the doctrine of the Chinese military it's pretty slim.....
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
Dimitri and Eth0 -with respect, have you held one or taken it apart? Calling it a disposable toy and comparing it's build quality to an AK is rubbish.
Hold your horses, my post comparing it to the AK was NOT intended to say this rifle is a cheap stamped rifle. I wouldn't buy a AK even if it was still legal to. I was simply comparing the service lives of this firearm (10,000rds verses 6,000rds, and with a good barrel installed combat accuracy will not be lost before the rifles life is over so it will not need to be changed out) and its use as compared to the AK (to arm 3rd world countries).
At a service life of 10,000 rounds, a Type 88 chambered in 5.8mm Chinese will never reach that in my possession. So I'm not worried about it being a "disposable toy".
Dimitri
At a service life of 10,000 rounds, a Type 88 chambered in 5.8mm Chinese will never reach that in my possession. So I'm not worried about it being a "disposable toy".
Dimitri
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
Hold your horses, my post comparing it to the AK was NOT intended to say this rifle is a cheap stamped rifle. I wouldn't buy a AK even if it was still legal to. I was simply comparing the service lives of this firearm (10,000rds verses 6,000rds, and with a good barrel installed combat accuracy will not be lost before the rifles life is over so it will not need to be changed out) and its use as compared to the AK (to arm 3rd world countries).
At a service life of 10,000 rounds, a Type 88 chambered in 5.8mm Chinese will never reach that in my possession. So I'm not worried about it being a "disposable toy".
Dimitri
Ok - got ya - thanks for the clarification.
Can anyone provide me a link to where the 10,000 round service life info came from? I asked green tips in a previous post but he didn't respond. I've read that info in this and the first "marstar" thread before but I haven't found reference to it anywhere on the net. I would like to bookmark it with all the other Type 97 info I could find. I'm not questioning the fact - I just would like to read it from the source.
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
All I get is a page full of squares and symbols...weird....
You must not have Chinese fonts installed.
Dimitri
Even if you got the Fonts installed it's pointless for the non-Chinese reader as it is text only.......
Although I can read Chinese perfectly well but it's too long for me to get it translated..........
Basically it talks about the basic characteristics of the Type 95 and it accessories like the bayonet, cleaning kit, day optical sight and night vision sight.......
BTW it mentions that the Type 95 iron sight system has luminous sight built into it, although IIRC it was some sort of luminous paint instead of Tritium capsules, and notorious for its short lifespan and will worn off due to usage......
Did our Type 97A have such kind of night sights?
Absolutely not, that's why I'm taking some information.
I might be interested but if the life is not equal to a standard AR or if I cannot have few after market peaces to replace defective and broken ones, why should I pay the same price as an AR?
Actually if I can't even replace an extractor because of availability, I call that disposable and won't pay 1500$.
10K rounds is not that much if I can't shoot a barn. If it just start to loose "some" accuracy after 10K rounds, as any other firearms, then it's another point.
Bottom line is $ for what you get.
Barrel life and Receiver life are 2 different things.
If I read Greentips post correctly he meant receiver life. So the comparasion to barrel life is not valid.
Still I guess thats a decent life expectancy for the type of firearm its meant to be. IE similar to a AK, a mass produced weapon to arm millions quickly, and by the time the barrel is shot out enough to notice by semi-trained recruits the gun is going to get thrown in the scrap heap anyways.
But on a side note, compared to the likes of a M14 rifle, its life is tiny, as the M14 has a service life of 400,000 rounds.
Dimitri
Wow, 400,000 rounds is allot of ammo...
You must be referring to absolute service rifle life? Meaning with barrel changes and proper care/gauging etc...
I was taught that barrel life was around 10,000 rounds, that was for the C1A1 rifle, later the C7. Meaning that accuracy will decrease beyond a point that cannot be corrected by sights. 10,000 rounds is reasonable for a rapid fire rifle. I found this from Lija precision barrels, FAQ.
Pete
QUTOE:
Q. What barrel "Life" in number of rounds fired, can I expect from my new barrel?
A: That is a good question, asked often by our customers. But again there is not a simple answer. In my opinion there are two distinct types of barrel life. Accurate barrel life is probably the type most of us are referencing when we ask the question. But there is also absolute barrel life too. That is the point where a barrel will no longer stabilize a bullet and accuracy is wild. The benchrest shooter and to a lesser extent other target shooters are looking at accurate barrel life only when asking this question. To a benchrest shooter firing in matches where group size is the only measure of precision, accuracy is everything. But to a score shooter firing at a target, or bull, that is larger than the potential group size of the rifle, it is less important. And to the varmint hunter shooting prairie dog size animals, the difference between a .25MOA rifle or one that has dropped in accuracy to .5MOA may not be noticeable in the field.
The big enemy to barrel life is heat. A barrel looses most of its accuracy due to erosion of the throat area of the barrel. Although wear on the crown from cleaning can cause problems too. The throat erosion is accelerated by he at. Any fast varmint type cartridge can burn out a barrel in just a few hundred rounds if those rounds are shot one after another without letting the barrel cool between groups. A cartridge burning less powder will last longer or increasing the bore size for a given powder volume helps too. For example a .243 Winchester and a .308 Winchester both are based on the same case but the .308 will last longer because it has a larger bore.
And stainless steel barrels will last longer than chrome-moly barrels. This is due to the ability of stainless steel to resist heat erosion better than the chrome-moly steel.
The benefits of deep cryogenic processing of barrels and the use of moly coated bullets in prolonging barrel life are discussed in our answers in this section on those specific subjects.
I thought it might be interesting to point out a few exceptional aggregates that I've fired with 6PPC benchrest rifles with barrels that had a number of rounds through them. I know benchrest shooters that would never fire barrels with over 1500 shots fired in them in registered benchrest matches.
I fired my smallest 100 yard 5 shot aggregate ever in 1992 at a registered benchrest match in Lewiston, Idaho. It was a .1558" aggregate fired in the Heavy Varmint class. And that barrel had about 2100 rounds through it at the time. Another good aggregate was fired at the 1997 NBRSA Nationals in Phoenix, Arizona during the 200 yard Light Varmint event. I placed second at this yardage with a 6PPC barrel that had over 2700 rounds through it at the time. I retired this barrel after that match because it had started to copper foul quite a bit. But accuracy was still good.
Incidentally, neither of these barrels had been frozen or had any moly coated bullets fired through them.
As a very rough rule of thumb I would say that with cartridges of .222 Remington size you could expect an accurate barrel life of 3-4000 rounds. And varmint type accuracy should be quite a bit longer than this.
For medium size cartridges, such as the .308 Winchester, 7x57 and even the 25-06, 2-3000 rounds of accurate life is reasonable.
Hot .224 caliber type cartridges will not do as well and 1000-2500 rounds is to be expected.
Bigger magnum hunting type rounds will shoot from 1500-3000 accurate rounds. But the bigger 30-378 Weatherby types won't do as well, being closer to the 1500 round figure.
These numbers are based on the use of stainless steel barrels. For chrome-moly barrels I would reduce these by roughly 20%.
The .17 and .50 calibers are rules unto themselves and I'm pressed to predict a figure.
The best life can be expected from the 22 long rifle barrels with 5000-10,000 accurate rounds to be expected.
Remember that predicting barrel life is a complicated, highly variable subject. You are the best judge of this with your particular barrel. Signs of accurate barrel life on the wane are increased copper fouling, lengthened throat depth, and decreased accuracy.
