Which Long Range Caliber for 1600 Yards?

"Iron Cat, your reading comprehension completely hit a wall because you are aggressively arguing with a strawman of your own making. Nobody ( except you) claimed the .300 RUM has a literal brass belt;
I explicitly called it a belted-style parent case because it utilizes the exact same BS obsolete, heavily rock-tapered, inefficient body footprint that requires a bloated, full-length magnum receiver to cycle it.

You dragged in that .404 Jeffery history lesson as a desperate smoke screen because you completely panicked when my blueprint math exposed your 10-grain H20 powder capacity deficit.

No matter how many history lessons you copy-and-paste, you still haven't mechanically explained how your shorter 300 Norma hull handles massive bullet displacement without pushing volatile, case-stretching pressure bounds that act like a plasma torch frying your rifle throat.

You completely surrendered the technical debate the second you backtracked to whining about what people 'LIKE' to shoot, so keep screaming into the void while real shop-floor physics wins the day.

🤣🤣

Take a look at Peter Dobson's post #119
As I said, some people are simply trolls on here
Cat
 
300 Norma Mag is ballistically superior to the 300 PRC and our team has both and have seen detailed performance data on both including VV .

PGW Steve makes a good argument for the PRC and we know of professions who use both.

Regards,

Peter

300 Norma does have more to offer than the PRC. The beauty of the PRC is it's case head size fits in any bolt face that was previously a belted magnum. As I said before, fat cases like the .338 Lapua, and the .300/.338 Norma are not a good fit on bolts that have a .700 major diameter, or 1-1/16" barrel tenons. If someone has a .338 Lapua, a barrel swap is all that's needed to step into the Norma. I'm a big fan of hot .30's for 1 mile shooting. I've yet to really stretch things past that and explore the bigger .338's that hold an advantage for impact splash with 300 grain bullets.
 
my 22arc has a 5.5 twist and a 30 inch barrel and 1400 yards is the max I get out of the Sierra 95-grain HPBT MatchKing.

what powder are you USING.....SPECIAL.blend or custom...what?

VOLUMETRIC DENSITY of the case is 34.0 grains.
with the slug is 29.07 grains water
and can only fit 26grains of powder because it does not fit like water

what are you doing different?
your thoughts on this?

Adam,

I'm using VV N550, and moly coated 90 SMK's in Alpha brass. My 26" IBI 1-7 shoots the 90's at 3040ish. The 1-7 Proof PXT barreled Coyote is just finished break in with naked bullets, and I've only fired a few moly 90's. With the same load with the CZ, velocity is a bit lower, but the primers are quite round. I'm going to step on it a little bit and see if I can crack 3100 comfortably with the 90's and call it a day. I've got a Foundation stock that I'm going to inlet and bed the Coyote BA into. I'm really looking forward to that combo!!
 
Here's our 1762 yard Elk.

IMG_8253.jpeg


This is 'Swiss Bear' at 1472 yards, it was a $100 target my buddy got in an auction, and it's 3/16" mild steel.

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Here is the 501 yard Shotmarker, and 507 yard 'blackjack' rack and the 'Cortina ethical deer challenge' with my 8" unethical gut shot flapper.

IMG_8260.jpeg

I had 2/5 hits on the Elk with the only LH Titanium Coyote in existence that I built in 2002, 154 Lapua Scenar at 2996 fps, loaded in 2019. Did my other 3 go over its back, probably. I'll try it again, as it was I was full up plus holding 8 mils or something.

IMG_8104.jpeg

Happy me after nailing the Elk with the ballistic turd. This shows a bit of the countryside, shots are 3-4 degrees down.

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This is the deck I built on top of the sea can, did the stairs too, I can build more than rifles lol. Sea can has some steel, paint, paper targets water and basic maintenance tools for the targets. No guns, ammo or valuables stored inside.

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This was 3/3 hits at 1 mile with my 300 PRC.

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You are quoting empty, unseated water-capacity metrics straight off a basic spec sheet, but you completely missed the boat on how projectile displacement physics dictates actual usable powder volume in an ELR system.

When you place the 300 Norma Mag and the 300 PRC side-by-side at the workbench under the heavy-for-caliber, ultra-long, high-BC match projectiles actually required to shoot a mile (like a 225gr ELD-M or 245gr Berger), the Norma's length restriction hits a hard mechanical wall.

Beacause the Norma hull is significantly shorter, seating those massive projectiles to standard magazine lengths forces the massive boat-tail of the bullet deep down into the body of the case.

That bullet intrusion physically displaces a massive chunk of your powder room, drastically tanking your net usable capacity.

The 300 PRC was explicitly engineered to solve this exact geometric flaw. Hornady built it with a longer case neck and optimized chamber throat geometry so that those heavy, streamlined, high-BC bullets seat completely out of the powder column. The bullet tail doesn't steal your combustion room, meaning a 30" or 29" match barrel gets 100% efficiency from the powder column.

To try and force that smaller, net-usable Norma room to match the muzzle velocity runway of the PRC under a 245-grain bullet, you have to pack specialized propellants right up to a volatile, case-stretching, high-pressure boundary well past standard safe limits. So no, a spec-sheet comparison of an empty case doesn't hold water once the bullet actually sits on the bench. Real shop-floor physics always beats catalog copy-pasting.

You cannot cheat Volumetric Density....but you can try.

The old 300 RUM is an entirely different animal;
a long, heavily tapered, old-school belted-style parent case that holds roughly 110 to 112 of water weight and requires a massive full-length magnum receiver.
You literally quoted water capacities in your post... you got the correct capacity for the norma but somehow added almost 20gr to the PRC's capacity. Your claim about the shorter norma case length stealing powder capacity also makes no sense. With a shorter case, there is no reason to push the bullet further into the case to get the same OAL (same reason the 6.5 Creed case is better for heavy for caliber bullets than the .260).

In any case, you're the only person I've ever heard claim that the PRC has more horsepower than a Norma and though I can't speak to using the 245s (since I run 220 LRHTs in mine) I can confidently say that 220s with 90.4gr of N570 in a 29.5" 300 Norma Mag is more than adequate for a mile (I've shot mine to 1840yds).
 
Here's our 1762 yard Elk.

View attachment 1223839


This is 'Swiss Bear' at 1472 yards, it was a $100 target my buddy got in an auction, and it's 3/16" mild steel.

View attachment 1223840

Here is the 501 yard Shotmarker, and 507 yard 'blackjack' rack and the 'Cortina ethical deer challenge' with my 8" unethical gut shot flapper.

View attachment 1223842

I had 2/5 hits on the Elk with the only LH Titanium Coyote in existence that I built in 2002, 154 Lapua Scenar at 2996 fps, loaded in 2019. Did my other 3 go over its back, probably. I'll try it again, as it was I was full up plus holding 8 mils or something.

View attachment 1223838

Happy me after nailing the Elk with the ballistic turd. This shows a bit of the countryside, shots are 3-4 degrees down.

View attachment 1223837

This is the deck I built on top of the sea can, did the stairs too, I can build more than rifles lol. Sea can has some steel, paint, paper targets water and basic maintenance tools for the targets. No guns, ammo or valuables stored inside.

View attachment 1223836

This was 3/3 hits at 1 mile with my 300 PRC.

View attachment 1223843
A buddy posted pics after his visit with you this past summer. Looks like a blast! I have the same 300PRC barrel as you both. Same good fun. 🍻
 
A buddy posted pics after his visit with you this past summer. Looks like a blast! I have the same 300PRC barrel as you both. Same good fun. 🍻

Ahhh yes, Reno and the Plumber, best week I've had in a long time. They witnessed the .308 hits as well as the ARC, and chalked up their own with .260 and .300 PRC. Those 30" .30 cal IBI's are lasers!!
 
Pretty hard to beat the bc on the heavier 7s in a lighter rifle. I would go 7saum and run the 180 eldm or berger around 2900. 6.5 prc would do it as well or just to be different you could go 7-6.5 prc.

That seems to be the new "cool" cartridge.

From what I can tell it does work pretty well.

1) Good brass offerings / availability (thats what lead to the demise of the 284 Winchester from what I understand)

2) 7mm bullet has good options from Berger

3) Barrel life is decent

4) From what I have read it *can* run in a short action but may not eject if you have to remove a live round (round is too long, may mean taking the bolt out to get enough room) which is an inconvenience, obviously a long action would work but I seem to recall that a medium action would be best but options were quite limited for those when I last checked.

I would like to build a 7/6.5 rig for F class but I already have something that covers that (not as well though) and I have many other irons in the fire.
 
You literally quoted water capacities in your post... you got the correct capacity for the norma but somehow added almost 20gr to the PRC's capacity. Your claim about the shorter norma case length stealing powder capacity also makes no sense. With a shorter case, there is no reason to push the bullet further into the case to get the same OAL (same reason the 6.5 Creed case is better for heavy for caliber bullets than the .260).

In any case, you're the only person I've ever heard claim that the PRC has more horsepower than a Norma and though I can't speak to using the 245s (since I run 220 LRHTs in mine) I can confidently say that 220s with 90.4gr of N570 in a 29.5" 300 Norma Mag is more than adequate for a mile (I've shot mine to 1840yds).
Volumetric Density of a case
vs
Gravimetric Density of a case.

You are looking at the right variables, but
you are cross-referencing two entirely different
engineering principles.

To understand why a modern unbelted hull like the out-efficiencies older case formats under ultra-heavy match projectiles past 1,000 yards, we have to look at
the strict physics boundary between gravimetric density and volumetric density..

GRAVAMETRIC DENSITY =
How much fuel weight can be packed into a space.
VOLUMETRIC DENSITY =
How much physical space is left after the bullet seats.

Volumetric density is pure, unbending geometry. It is the exact measurement of liquid, three-dimensional space inside a container.

The Blueprint Wall:
You are 100% correct that an empty, unseated hull holds more gross water volume (~104.2 grains of H20) than an empty (~95.4 to 97.0 grains of H20).

The Intrusion Deficit:
However, an empty case doesn't fire down a bore. The second you step up to the modern heavyweight match projectiles required to maximize supersonic distance past a mile--such as a 225-grain ELD-Match or a 245-grain Berger EOL--the short 2.492-inch case length of the Norma hits a hard
mechanical restriction
To chamber that massive projectile within receiver limits, the long copper tail must plunge deep past the neck-shoulder junction.

That displacement acts like a piston, physically stealing roughly 12 to 14 grains of volume out of the center of the case, dropping your net usable combustion room down to a restricted ~90.0 grains of H2O.

The PRC Advantage: The 300 PRC runs a longer 2.580-inch hull explicitly optimized with a chamber throat that keeps the entire bearing surface of those heavy missiles completely forward of the shoulder junction.

The bullet never sits nside your engine room stealing your fuel space.

Gravimetric Density (The Physics of the Propellant Mass);

Gravimetric density deals with the ratio of powder weight to the space it occupies. Because extruded powders have physical air gaps, heavy charges in restricted cases lead to high compression.

This requires higher operating pressures (68,000+ PSI), increasing metal fatigue and throat wear.

Under controlled comparisons, the 300 PRC proves more efficient because its geometry prevents the projectile from intruding into the powder column, achieving smooth performance without excessive pressure spikes.

All things being exactly equal in rifle, powder, projectile....and the CASE BEING THE ONLY DIFFERENCE 300 NORMA SHORT AND WIDE
and the
300 PRC BEING TALL AND NARROW....
300PRC is better
 
Adam,

Are we talking a loaded overall length based on say 3.725" for the 3.85" CIP magazine? If the hard limit is the magazine length, and the Norma case is shorter than the PRC, more of the bullet is outside of the case, the neck and thus the internal combustion chamber. I'm fundamentally missing something here.

The same comparison is relevant to the .22 ARC vs .223 Rem. The constraint being 2.26" magazine length, and trying to put an 88gr bullet in a .223 leads to the snake in a turtle neck scenario. The .22 ARC pulls the case length back, makes the combustion chamber fatter, and less bullet protrudes below the neck/shoulder junction.

Sorry, I'm trying to wrap my head around this, something seems backwards.

Steve
 
Adam,

Are we talking a loaded overall length based on say 3.725" for the 3.85" CIP magazine? If the hard limit is the magazine length, and the Norma case is shorter than the PRC, more of the bullet is outside of the case, the neck and thus the internal combustion chamber. I'm fundamentally missing something here.

The same comparison is relevant to the .22 ARC vs .223 Rem. The constraint being 2.26" magazine length, and trying to put an 88gr bullet in a .223 leads to the snake in a turtle neck scenario. The .22 ARC pulls the case length back, makes the combustion chamber fatter, and less bullet protrudes below the neck/shoulder junction.

Sorry, I'm trying to wrap my head around this, something seems backwards.

Steve
Honestly Steve, I think it's cause he's using some weird AI #### to write his posts. Somehow per his numbers, the 300NM's case capacity is 104ish gr of powder (which is actually it's volumetric case capacity with water) but the 300 PRC's case capacity for powder is 115ish gr (yet it's volumetric case capacity with water is only 96gr?). So somehow the 300PRC can fit more powder in a smaller volume than the norma can. None of this makes any sense at all...
 
Adam,

Are we talking a loaded overall length based on say 3.725" for the 3.85" CIP magazine? If the hard limit is the magazine length, and the Norma case is shorter than the PRC, more of the bullet is outside of the case, the neck and thus the internal combustion chamber. I'm fundamentally missing something here.

The same comparison is relevant to the .22 ARC vs .223 Rem. The constraint being 2.26" magazine length, and trying to put an 88gr bullet in a .223 leads to the snake in a turtle neck scenario. The .22 ARC pulls the case length back, makes the combustion chamber fatter, and less bullet protrudes below the neck/shoulder junction.

Sorry, I'm trying to wrap my head around this, something seems backwards.

Steve
"Steve,
you are actually looking at the right variables, but you are running into a paradox because you are forcing standard, restricted factory magazine constraints (3.725" CIP or 2.26" AR-15) as your fixed control baseline for an uncompromised ELR system.

If you hold a fixed, static Maximum Overall Length (COAL) to fit a restricted commercial magazine footprint, then yes, your math is correct: a shorter hull pushes more of the bullet nose forward and out of the neck. But that is a factory hunting rifle compromise, not an optimized extreme long-range blueprint.

When you build a dedicated one-mile machine from the inside of the bore outward, you headspace and throat the chamber for the projectile first, completely bypassing the magazine box constraint.

If you place the 300 Norma Mag and the 300 PRC side-by-side on a true control workbench- with both actions custom-throated to seat a massive, ultra-long 245-grain Berger EOL or 225-grain ELD-M exactly where it belongs (with the bullet's bearing-surface tail sitting perfectly at the base of the neck junction)--the physical blueprint changes completely.

Because the 300 PRC features a fundamentally longer 2.580-inch case body and an optimized long neck, it preserves 100% of your internal combustion chamber room. The bullet tail sits entirely forward of the powder column To achieve that exact same optimal throat layout with the shorter 2.492-inch Norma hull, your loaded COAL stretches out so incredibly far past factory specifications that it will no longer feed or function in a standard long-action receiver layout.

If you choke that 300 Norma down to actually fit into that standard 3.725" CIP magazine you mentioned, that massive 245-grain bullet tail is forced to plunge deep down past the neck-shoulder junction, acting like a steel piston that physically steals
12 to 14 grains of volume right
out of the center of your hull!

That is the Volumetric Density
trap. You end up with a smaller
net fuel tank, forcing you to stoke
the case with volatile, heavily
compressed, spike-prone
overpressures up near a
hazardous 68,000+ PSI boundary
just to try and match the PRC's
muzzle velocity runway.

It is the exact same story with the
.223 Rem Vs. .22 ARC
comparison. If you run a custom
single-feed barrel throated
specifically to maximize a heavy
95-grain Sierra MatchKing, the
.223 case runs completely out of
volumetric runway because the
bullet body chokes out its tiny 28-
grain fuel tank.

All things being
equal-same slow powder engine,
same barrel runway, same heavy
projectile-the tall, narrow
container preserves its net usable
volume, while the short case
forces bullet intrusion. You
cannot cheat the three-
dimensional space inside a
cylinder!
 
Honestly Steve, I think it's cause he's using some weird AI #### to write his posts. Somehow per his numbers, the 300NM's case capacity is 104ish gr of powder (which is actually it's volumetric case capacity with water) but the 300 PRC's case capacity for powder is 115ish gr (yet it's volumetric case capacity with water is only 96gr?). So somehow the 300PRC can fit more powder in a smaller volume than the norma can. None of this makes any sense at all...
like or not..thats a fact jack!
ai?? you can' t beat physics...unless.unicorn youtube🤣
 
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Our range in PG is working on extending from the current 1370 ish meters to 1600ish meters. I know that it may be a year or so before things actually happen, so I have a bit of time, but want to do some leg work and figuring before hand.

I have a current 6 dasher, that I know is just not going to be capable to ringing steel out there consistently, so want to start dreaming of another build to reach 1600 consistently. I know it all can reach, but the key work consistent!

I have a current defiance action that sits as my hunting rifle in 6.5 PRC, that I could spin on a new barrel and use. The set up has a non threaded 22" carbon barrel that I really don't want to shoot out to ring steel with, plus would rather have a break on the end. The few rounds I would need to shoot before hunting season to reset the barrel and scope is a minor detail for me, so not really a factor.

It is a short action, magnum bolt head so it might limit me. I would probably go with a single feed sled in the action, so not concerned with the mag length. I have some new Lapua brass sitting that I could use if I went 6.5 PRC.

Should I stick with the 6.5 PRC and push the 153.5 Berger bullet with it out there, or drop the idea of using the short action and going to a long action, which would mean a new stock as well??? Or is there another alternative in the short action magnum bolt head I would be better served with????

I was recently reading about the 30XC, 338, 338 improved, but don't know if I really want to subject myself to that level of recoil. I also use a 450 BM for hunting and know the recoil pulse, but don't really want constant 50 round strings of recoil to deal with in that range. I know the 6 dasher is kinda spoiling me right now.

The 7 PRC has also been on my radar.

No I'm not gunning to be a sniper, just intrigued with long distance plinking!

Considering you're already ready for 6.5 PRC (maybe some optimization, but no major changes required), it will probably serve your expected-use scenario.

That being said - for a combination hunting/long-range rig, I was quite excited about the 7 PRC until I started seeing the 7 Backcountry.
YES - I know pressure is a limitation on whatever action you plan on using. Might need something new.
YES - I know it is still new and real-world data is still spotty. Although feedback exists, invariably some of it is hype.
YES - I know it will not use any brass or reloading equipment anyone has, so that would be an expense, along with basically a new rifle build.

All that being said - the numbers I see excite me, and since we don't have suppressors we don't have to artificially limit ourselves to short barrels.
Out of a 24" or 26" barrel, the 7 BC has the potential to be an absolute freight train with heavy bullets (which are available).

My #1 shooting colleague is at a level that would allow him to fully exploit everything a .338 Lapua has to offer, to the point that lesser cartridges would be holding him back. Yes I know how that sounds, believe me when I say this is how it is.

I am not, and probably will never be, at that level. However, I consider a 7mm Backcountry to offer a significant advantage over most offerings in its class, while remaining within a performance envelope I could actually exploit. In other words, where he might outshoot a .338LM in 5 or 10 years, I will probably never outshoot a 7 BC. And I consider it to sit at an almost-ideal cross-section of factors.
Yes it would require a new build, but that would not deter me.

In your position, since you're about to have frequent access to a new, longer range - I would say start by using your 6.5 PRC, it will be a great start. If you enjoy it, consider optimizing it for this purpose. If you enjoy it more than that, consider a new build in a caliber that will do what you need it to, without burning powder and $$$ that does not offer you any further advantage in your expected-use scenario.
IMHO, the big .338 magnums may be overkill, and the 7 BC catches the .300PRC before 1 mile, both speed and energy-wise, and the .300 Norma speed-wise, both with less drop. I would mention the 7 PRC, but the 7 BC blows it out of the water.

Not a fanboy here, but I can say that my research into 6.5CM +Peak (which now offers a genuine performance advantage over .308Win) and 7mm BC, espeically with the heavy Bergers, have given me the nudge into 2 custom builds that I would not have considered for legacy calibers.

My $0.02 - YMMV.
 
I play around with a 300 PRC and a 338 lapua, one thing I quickly learned was that the heaviest highest BC bullets aren't necessarily the best.
Also the heaviest bullets generate a lot more recoil and are just that much less fun to shoot.


Beacause the Norma hull is significantly shorter, seating those massive projectiles to standard magazine lengths forces the massive boat-tail of the bullet deep down into the body of the case.
Who said anything about loading to mag length? I haven't used a magazine in years. I 3D print my own SLED's for every rifle. It is so much easier to single load at the bench.


The 300 PRC was explicitly engineered to solve this exact geometric flaw. Hornady built it with a longer case neck and optimized chamber throat geometry so that those heavy, streamlined, high-BC bullets seat completely out of the powder column. The bullet tail doesn't steal your combustion room, meaning a 30" or 29" match barrel gets 100% efficiency from the powder column.
Well then you should go tell Hodgdon that they don't know what they are talking about because all of their published data says the opposite. The Norma accepts more powder and produces more velocity for the same sized bullet as the PRC. 🤷‍♂️

Don't shoot the messenger. :rolleyes:
 
I'm a big fan of hot .30's for 1 mile shooting.
A large case .30 cal can do a lot more than 1 mile. My 225gr 300 NM load should be supersonic to nearly 2400 yds. I hope to test this practically next summer.


.22 short
It is spotting the splash that becomes the issue. :p


post means Sierra Foxtrot Alpha!
Yea, I'm sure that Peter Dobson's decades of experience is no match for your dizzying intellect. :rolleyes:
 
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