Which Long Range Caliber for 1600 Yards?

300 Norma Mag is ballistically superior to the 300 PRC and our team has both and have seen detailed performance data on both including VV .

PGW Steve makes a good argument for the PRC and we know of professions who use both.

Regards,

Peter
with all things EQUAL IN BOTH RIFLES exactly (chassis, actions barrels, etc) except the brass cases themselves for obvious reasons.....volumetric and gravimetric denstity physics say the 300prc is better..

CHANGE any of the varibles (barrel , projectile powder etc....) i can believe to make either go in either direction.
 
Adam,
I appreciate the time you put into your reply, but I'm still not getting what you're trying to explain.

The .300 PRC has 94.5gr of H2O capacity, the .300 Norma is 104gr of H2O, both using the overflow method, apples to apples.
If you seat a 225gr ELDM into both, to a depth of .308" on the shank, not including the boat tail, you end up with the same negative volume in terms of capacity, as this is all relative to the case mouth. The PRC has a usable capacity of 86.074gr of H2O, the Norma is 95.570gr. The Norma is more 'magazine' friendly, it allows you to throat the bullet longer, thus out of the combustion chamber, which would be an advantage with the 245/250 class.

Again, if you look at the OAL with both bullets seated to the same depth, the PRC is 3.743" and the Norma is 3.632", a difference of .110". Longer and skinny is better how?Time and time and again, short fat powder columns have proven to be more accurate, 6PPC, 6BR are excellent examples.
 
Adam,
I appreciate the time you put into your reply, but I'm still not getting what you're trying to explain.

The .300 PRC has 94.5gr of H2O capacity, the .300 Norma is 104gr of H2O, both using the overflow method, apples to apples.
If you seat a 225gr ELDM into both, to a depth of .308" on the shank, not including the boat tail, you end up with the same negative volume in terms of capacity, as this is all relative to the case mouth. The PRC has a usable capacity of 86.074gr of H2O, the Norma is 95.570gr. The Norma is more 'magazine' friendly, it allows you to throat the bullet longer, thus out of the combustion chamber, which would be an advantage with the 245/250 class.

Again, if you look at the OAL with both bullets seated to the same depth, the PRC is 3.743" and the Norma is 3.632", a difference of .110". Longer and skinny is better how?Time and time and again, short fat powder columns have proven to be more accurate, 6PPC, 6BR are excellent examples.
Steve,
you are trying to scale up 100-yard point-blank benchrest toy cartridge dynamics and apply them to extreme long-range heavy artillery builds, and the physics simply do not cross over....if it did miltaries across the globe would be knocking on your door!

First, quoting the short, fat powder columns of the 6PPC and 6BR to defend an extreme-range magnum is a total thermodynamic fallacy.

Those tiny cartridges burn small, ~30-grain charges of fast propellants at short distances. When you scale up to stoking 85 to 95+ grains of sluggish, slow-burning progressive powders behind a massive 245gr Berger past a mile, a wide, fat column creates a severe mechanical defect: erratic flame-front propagation. A standard primer blast cannot ignite that wide block of slow powder uniformly across the face of the column.

This introduces microscopic ignition delays and erratic internal pressure waves, driving up your extreme spread (ES) velocity deviations--which turn into massive vertical flyers long before your bullet ever sees the 1,600-meter plate .

The tall, narrow, linear column of the 300 PRC ensures a perfectly uniform, predictable flame travel straight up the axis of the case, delivering the single-digit ES required for vertical consistency at distance.

Second, your 'same seating depth math game walks right into a massive mechanical paradox!

You claim the Norma is 'more magazine friendly' because you can throat the massive 245gr bullet shallow and forward of the case mouth to preserve room....

HOWEVER; if you throat that short Norma case to push that massive 1.775-inch projectile out of the powder room, your loaded COAL stretches out so incredibly far that the round will no longer fit, feed, or cycle through a STANARD long-action receiver footprint or a standard 3.85" CIP magazine!

To run it that way, you are forced to bypass standard long actions entirely and step up to a specialized, expensive, oversized .338 Lapua Magnum-sized receiver core!

The 300 PRC was explicitly engineered from day one to deliver maximum VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY under that heavy 245-grain projectile inside STANDARD, affordable long-action rifle dimensions with ZERO mechanical compromises!

The 3/32-inch (0.110") case length difference is exactly the structural runway that keeps the bullet body safely forward of the shoulder while tracking flawlessly straight down the center axis of a standard long action.

Real-world toolmakers headspace from the bore outward, not backward from a benchrest catalog chart!
 
Steve,
you are trying to scale up 100-yard point-blank benchrest toy cartridge dynamics and apply them to extreme long-range heavy artillery builds, and the physics simply do not cross over....if it did miltaries across the globe would be knocking on your door!

First, quoting the short, fat powder columns of the 6PPC and 6BR to defend an extreme-range magnum is a total thermodynamic fallacy.

Those tiny cartridges burn small, ~30-grain charges of fast propellants at short distances. When you scale up to stoking 85 to 95+ grains of sluggish, slow-burning progressive powders behind a massive 245gr Berger past a mile, a wide, fat column creates a severe mechanical defect: erratic flame-front propagation. A standard primer blast cannot ignite that wide block of slow powder uniformly across the face of the column.

This introduces microscopic ignition delays and erratic internal pressure waves, driving up your extreme spread (ES) velocity deviations--which turn into massive vertical flyers long before your bullet ever sees the 1,600-meter plate .

The tall, narrow, linear column of the 300 PRC ensures a perfectly uniform, predictable flame travel straight up the axis of the case, delivering the single-digit ES required for vertical consistency at distance.

Second, your 'same seating depth math game walks right into a massive mechanical paradox!

You claim the Norma is 'more magazine friendly' because you can throat the massive 245gr bullet shallow and forward of the case mouth to preserve room....

HOWEVER; if you throat that short Norma case to push that massive 1.775-inch projectile out of the powder room, your loaded COAL stretches out so incredibly far that the round will no longer fit, feed, or cycle through a STANARD long-action receiver footprint or a standard 3.85" CIP magazine!

To run it that way, you are forced to bypass standard long actions entirely and step up to a specialized, expensive, oversized .338 Lapua Magnum-sized receiver core!

The 300 PRC was explicitly engineered from day one to deliver maximum VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY under that heavy 245-grain projectile inside STANDARD, affordable long-action rifle dimensions with ZERO mechanical compromises!

The 3/32-inch (0.110") case length difference is exactly the structural runway that keeps the bullet body safely forward of the shoulder while tracking flawlessly straight down the center axis of a standard long action.

Real-world toolmakers headspace from the bore outward, not backward from a benchrest catalog chart!
Ah this makes sense as to why my 300 Super WSM beats both these cartridges and all others who ever were. Here I thought sticking a real long bullet into a short case and putting it in a long action was just a novel idea. The idea of entering a paradox never crossed my mind and just think, as the lands erode my cartridge can only get better with a greater option of VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY.
The next time I'm at the range I will make sure to tell everyone how it was possible for me to save that 1 click at a mile. Don't worry, I will show them your post so I don't miss quote you. They are going to be so excited I can hardly wait.
 
Ah this makes sense as to why my 300 Super WSM beats both these cartridges and all others who ever were. Here I thought sticking a real long bullet into a short case and putting it in a long action was just a novel idea. The idea of entering a paradox never crossed my mind and just think, as the lands erode my cartridge can only get better with a greater option of VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY.
The next time I'm at the range I will make sure to tell everyone how it was possible for me to save that 1 click at a mile. Don't worry, I will show them your post so I don't miss quote you. They are going to be so excited I can hardly wait.
"ICEDSHOT",
I want to thank you for publicly proving my exact point and completely disproving your own defensive narrative.

By celebrating that custom-throating a short-bodied case (like the 300 Super WSM project) and running it out of a long-action receiver increases your volumetric efficiency, you are explicitly validating my entire workbench thesis!

You just openly admitted that keeping a projectile tail forward of the neck-shoulder junction to preserve combustion room is the ultimate mechanical victory for linear ballistics.

The only difference is that a 300 Super WSM requires single feeding or highly specialized custom actions just to bypass a short-action box.

The 300 PRC was engineered from day one with its longer 2.580-inch case body and long neck to deliver that exact same uncompromised volumetric density inside a standard long action off the retail shelf with zero compromises.

Print this post out and show it to the guys at the range; they might finally understand that CONTAINER GEOMETRY along with barrel length sweet spot dictates the entire extreme-range envelope. 😎👍
 
You just openly admitted that keeping a projectile tail forward of the neck-shoulder junction to preserve combustion room is the ultimate mechanical victory for linear ballistics.
I admitted nothing
The only difference is that a 300 Super WSM requires single feeding or highly specialized custom actions just to bypass a short-action box.
"highly specialized" lol. It's a stock Tikka action.
 
I admitted nothing

"highly specialized" lol. It's a stock Tikka action.
"ICEDSHOT",
calling a Tikka a 'stock action' completely seals your own technical execution.
Anyone with a basic shop-floor background knows that since Tikka introduced the T3 platform in 2003, they have only manufactured one single action length-and it is a native long action receiver footprint.

The only thing that makes a factory Tikka a short-action is a cheap plastic magazine spacer and a restricted factory bolt stop.

By modifying your WSM to run out of a 'stock Tikka frame, you literally just bypassed the short spacer to feed it single-shot or out of a long action envelope so your ultra-long projectile would stop plunging deep past the neck-shoulder junction.

You are using a 3.400-inch-plus long action runway to clear your bullet throat, which is the exact architectural foundation the 300 PRC delivers right out of a factory box off the retail shelf with zero single-feed compromises.

You are copying the PRC's homework on a budget factory action and calling it a victory!"
 
You are copying the PRC's homework on a budget factory action and calling it a victory!"
Who are you trying to impress? I mean that as a genuine question. "Basic shop-floor background" might be more credit then your audience deserves if you think your intellect far surpasses that of the general firearms community regarding Tikka's.
I was going to seat a heavy, high b.c. bullet in my .308 win but now I fear a lawsuit from Hornady due to patent infringement on the 300 PRC.

I enjoy internet debates but I like real world accountability better, so I challenge you to a shoot off at my local range. I will pay for your guest pass and will book 2 benches at the 1 mile range. There are shot markers set up so we can post the results for all to see (assuming you can hit 4x4' at a mile). The rifles used will be posted with action, chamber, barrel, length and chassis as well as ammo with cases, powder, primer and the bullet used. The shot marker will record velocity at target and the muzzle velocity will be recorded by a Garmin or Labradar radar. We can limit the round count to 10 rounds with 2 sighters. I am able to have 2 guests so if anyone with a 300 Norma mag wants to come and join in you would be welcome as well.
If this challenge is too much for you, I will send you and private invite for the next mile long competition and you can join anonymously and compete against a group of people. Some with "stock" guns and plastic magazines.
 
Time and time and again, short fat powder columns have proven to be more accurate, 6PPC, 6BR are excellent examples.
THIS is what I was saying. Now I am not a ballistician but basic physics and mechanics tend to scale in a general manner.


Steve,
you are trying to scale up 100-yard point-blank benchrest toy cartridge dynamics and apply them to extreme long-range heavy artillery builds, and the physics simply do not cross over....if it did miltaries across the globe would be knocking on your door!
Do you have any clue who PGW Steve is? He built some of the finest long range rifles in the world and yes they were used by the CAF to make some VERY long shots. He has actual designing and building experience with rifles that performed in the real world.
 
I am able to have 2 guests so if anyone with a 300 Norma mag wants to come and join in you would be welcome as well.
Ooooo oooo oooo pick me coach.

TBH I have been dying to shoot at the RMH range. I am 2 hours away so def worth a trip up there.

And I just bought a custom built 300 NM rifle. I had been playing with my buddy's 300 NM and quite enjoying it so decided I needed my own. I have handloads using 225gr Hornady ELD-M as well as 208 AMAX, both of which should be supersonic out to about 2400 yds.

I enjoy internet debates but I like real world accountability better, so I challenge you to a shoot off at my local range. I will pay for your guest pass and will book 2 benches at the 1 mile range.
I've seen this kind of thing before on a motorcycle forum. The guys talking out of their azz will NEVER accept an actual challenge.
 
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Who are you trying to impress? I mean that as a genuine question. "Basic shop-floor background" might be more credit then your audience deserves if you think your intellect far surpasses that of the general firearms community regarding Tikka's.
I was going to seat a heavy, high b.c. bullet in my .308 win but now I fear a lawsuit from Hornady due to patent infringement on the 300 PRC.

I enjoy internet debates but I like real world accountability better, so I challenge you to a shoot off at my local range. I will pay for your guest pass and will book 2 benches at the 1 mile range. There are shot markers set up so we can post the results for all to see (assuming you can hit 4x4' at a mile). The rifles used will be posted with action, chamber, barrel, length and chassis as well as ammo with cases, powder, primer and the bullet used. The shot marker will record velocity at target and the muzzle velocity will be recorded by a Garmin or Labradar radar. We can limit the round count to 10 rounds with 2 sighters. I am able to have 2 guests so if anyone with a 300 Norma mag wants to come and join in you would be welcome as well.
If this challenge is too much for you, I will send you and private invite for the next mile long competition and you can join anonymously and compete against a group of people. Some with "stock" guns and plastic magazines.
IMPRESS!?!?
I'm not here to impress anyone, and I'm certainly not crying about your answer. You're trying to tur a discussion about ballistics math and field mechanics into a personality conflict because you can't defeat the actual data.
The physics does NOT care about your ego. When you look at the intersection of high BC, velocity, and efficiency, the numbers lean heavily toward optimized 6.5mm and 7mm setups for a reason.

Furthermore, anyone who actually shoots those distances knows that flight time gives you the window to settle back into the glass and spot your own misses-unless your rig kicks so hard it sends your optical zero into the next postal code!

If you want to argue drop, wind drift, and efficiency, let's see your data. If you just want to play semantic games and talk about 'opening gates, you're just deflecting because the math left you behind.....way way behind🤣
 
A standard primer blast cannot ignite that wide block of slow powder uniformly across the face of the column.
This flies in the face of generally accepted accuracy parameters. Numerous super accurate cartridges use small rifle primers instead of large.

IF it were important to accuracy to ignite a wide column of powder across its face, then Benchrest and other cartridges would use large rifle magnum primers.


You're trying to tur a discussion about ballistics math and field mechanics into a personality conflict because you can't defeat the actual data.
The actual data is found on a rifle range 🤷‍♂️ .... not in your fever dreams, bench top calculations or internet discussions. You use the term, "field mechanics" while denigrating the notion of actually shooting a rifle in the field. :rolleyes:

In the end you will never accept an actual comparison on the range because it just might prove you are wrong and you cannot ever admit that you are wrong or simply don't know what you are talking about. 🤷‍♂️ Knowledge always involves experience and real world testing. Without that you are only playing with yourself.
 
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THIS is what I was saying. Now I am not a ballistician but basic physics and mechanics tend to scale in a general manner.



Do you have any clue who PGW Steve is? He built some of the finest long range rifles in the world and yes they were used by the CAF to make some VERY long shots. He has actual designing and building experience with rifles that performed in the real world.
Ooooo oooo oooo pick me coach.

TBH I have been dying to shoot at the RMH range. I am 2 hours away so def worth a trip up there.

And I just bought a custom built 300 NM rifle. I had been playing with my buddy's 300 NM and quite enjoying it so decided I needed my own. I have handloads using 225gr Hornady ELD-M as well as 208 AMAX, both of which should be supersonic out to about 2400 yds.


I've seen this kind of thing before on a motorcycle forum. The guys talking out of their azz will NEVER accept an actual challenge.
"If you have nothing constructive to bring to a ballistics discussion other than emotional tantrums, keep it to yourself. I came here to talk math and field mechanics, but you clearly don't have the data to back up your opinions.....which says
I Don't Care About You.
 
Here's our 1762 yard Elk.

View attachment 1223839


This is 'Swiss Bear' at 1472 yards, it was a $100 target my buddy got in an auction, and it's 3/16" mild steel.

View attachment 1223840

Here is the 501 yard Shotmarker, and 507 yard 'blackjack' rack and the 'Cortina ethical deer challenge' with my 8" unethical gut shot flapper.

View attachment 1223842

I had 2/5 hits on the Elk with the only LH Titanium Coyote in existence that I built in 2002, 154 Lapua Scenar at 2996 fps, loaded in 2019. Did my other 3 go over its back, probably. I'll try it again, as it was I was full up plus holding 8 mils or something.

View attachment 1223838

Happy me after nailing the Elk with the ballistic turd. This shows a bit of the countryside, shots are 3-4 degrees down.

View attachment 1223837

This is the deck I built on top of the sea can, did the stairs too, I can build more than rifles lol. Sea can has some steel, paint, paper targets water and basic maintenance tools for the targets. No guns, ammo or valuables stored inside.

View attachment 1223836

This was 3/3 hits at 1 mile with my 300 PRC.

View attachment 1223843
I thought my 1.5 mile range was pretty sweet :) Now I am suffering from range envy .
You have an exceptional shooting facility . Great work .
 
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I will ask the question as I have been curious about this cartridge... but what about the 300 Super WSM????

At 1600 m its maybe pushing it but I hear lots of good things on it and the cartridge has been accurate since Day 1.
 
Who are you trying to impress? I mean that as a genuine question. "Basic shop-floor background" might be more credit then your audience deserves if you think your intellect far surpasses that of the general firearms community regarding Tikka's.
I was going to seat a heavy, high b.c. bullet in my .308 win but now I fear a lawsuit from Hornady due to patent infringement on the 300 PRC.

I enjoy internet debates but I like real world accountability better, so I challenge you to a shoot off at my local range. I will pay for your guest pass and will book 2 benches at the 1 mile range. There are shot markers set up so we can post the results for all to see (assuming you can hit 4x4' at a mile). The rifles used will be posted with action, chamber, barrel, length and chassis as well as ammo with cases, powder, primer and the bullet used. The shot marker will record velocity at target and the muzzle velocity will be recorded by a Garmin or Labradar radar. We can limit the round count to 10 rounds with 2 sighters. I am able to have 2 guests so if anyone with a 300 Norma mag wants to come and join in you would be welcome as well.
If this challenge is too much for you, I will send you and private invite for the next mile long competition and you can join anonymously and compete against a group of people. Some with "stock" guns and plastic magazines.
when YOU Have set of IDENTICAL RIFLES in hand 29in 8tw 1.25 bull with brakes
and exactly identical loaded rounds with powder and 245 berges projetiles a real range like
Desert Marksman of Idaho or the Florida 2mile Immokalee which tracks the full 2 miles
Plane Is standing by.
😎
 
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