Which Long Range Caliber for 1600 Yards?

adamthebad said:
To run it that way, you are forced to bypass standard long actions entirely and step up to a specialized, expensive, oversized .338 Lapua Magnum-sized receiver core!
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Not accurate you can run a standard LA though it would require the .585 BF there is economic options available, most builder actions allow for about roughly 3.8-3.9” over and above that you’re looking for a Seekins cut. However it’s not needed 300 Norma loaded .308 from boat tail would give you a coal of roughly 3.735 +/- with 245 EOL seeing as there’s currently almost no factory offerings and the ones that are are using CIP mags it’s a non issue that it won’t fit in a standard LA mag loaded this way there’s NO way 300 PRC can match the velocity loaded at a reasonable pressure how wide the gap is is TBD I’m not saying the PRC is dog #### by any means it’s a fine cartridge and a fine choice but you have to be realistic I’d be happy to run it in GRT if specifics of load are provided I’m open to be potentially proven wrong
 
salcal23 said:
Not accurate you can run a standard LA though it would require the .585 BF there is economic options available, most builder actions allow for about roughly 3.8-3.9” over and above that you’re looking for a Seekins cut. However it’s not needed 300 Norma loaded .308 from boat tail would give you a coal of roughly 3.735 +/- with 245 EOL seeing as there’s currently almost no factory offerings and the ones that are are using CIP mags it’s a non issue that it won’t fit in a standard LA mag loaded this way there’s NO way 300 PRC can match the velocity loaded at a reasonable pressure how wide the gap is is TBD I’m not saying the PRC is dog #### by any means it’s a fine cartridge and a fine choice but you have to be realistic I’d be happy to run it in GRT if specifics of load are provided I’m open to be potentially proven wrong
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SalCal,
thank you for providing the exact data needed to prove A point. Your 3.735" COAL calculation completely sinks the 300 Norma Mag.

The 245gr Berger EOL is 1.811" long. By admitting that a standard long-action mag forces a 3.735" COAL on the Norma, you are confirming that the bullet has to sit over half an inch deep inside the case. The boat tail and bearing surface plunge way past the neck-shoulder junction, acting like a piston that completely destroys the case's net usable volume. You are faking gross capacity while creating a massive shortfall in actual, seated water grains.

When you drop your slow nitro powder (like N570) into that restricted space, you are severely crushing the kernels. That heavy compression ruins your burn progression, spikes your pressure unevenly, and blows up your velocity Standard Deviation (SD)--which means massive vertical stringing and misses at 1,600 yards.

Go ahead and run it in GRT, but run it honestly: Input a .300 PRC with a 29-inch barrel and a 1:8 twist, with the 245gr Berger seated completely forward in the PRC's long neck where it belongs, optimizing net capacity and load density. Compare that to your short-seated, powder-crushing 3.735" Norma load. Check the net water volume under the bullet and look at the massive bolt thrust difference on that wide .585 face. The structural science wins every single time."

Note: There are three distinct case capacity measurements tracked here:
1. Gross Case Capacity (H20
Grains): Total volume of the empty, untrimmed/trimmed case filled to the brim.
2.Net Case Capacity (H20
Grains): Available volume with the projectile seated to its specified depth.
3. Effective Powder Volume:
Usable space occupied by the powder charge, accounting for the projectile base and any remaining air space.
 
Playtimefun said:
I will ask the question as I have been curious about this cartridge... but what about the 300 Super WSM????

At 1600 m its maybe pushing it but I hear lots of good things on it and the cartridge has been accurate since Day 1.
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As above I stated I use this cartridge in a Tikka action. It was a low cost rout into shooting a semi custom cartridge. I put a 27" barrel with a 1-9 twist on it. It is chambered with a standard throat and not for the ultra long bullets. At the time I put it together I was given some great advice from Jerry at Mystic Precision to either use the Berger 200.2 gr or the Sierra 200 gr (2231) as these will chamber in a standard throat of a rifle while not impeding on case capacity.
My rifle likes the Sierra's best and I have stuck with them for most of my shooting. My rifle will push these bullets on average of 2945 fps. The actual ballistics give me a drop of 16.2 mils (100 meter zero) at 1 mile (1612 meters) with the fps at target right about 1250. This keeps it supersonic at the target...barely. These bullets are stable through the transonic range and are consistent past the mile. All ELR calibers will go transonic at some point so finding a good bullet that stays stable is key. For reference actual numbers, This round requires almost exactly 5 mil of elevation to go from 1300 meters to 1612 meters. That is about 38 feet of elevation for 312 meters of flight.
I started shooting the 230 gr Berger just recently. The bullet is seated a little deep for optimal case capacity but it works well. For reference my CBTO is 2.336" (or 3.1215 overall length) with the 230 gr bullet. SAAMI specs for overall length are 2.860" so I am more then .25 longer then max SAAMI. I am getting 2755 fps in the accuracy node.

So ignoring everything I said above, you can try a super 300wsm in a standard 300wsm chambered rifle. You just need to single feed the ammo. Use the Berger 200.2 gr or Sierra 200 gr Match King 2231, pick a powder and see how far it will go.
 
adamthebad said:
when YOU Have set of IDENTICAL RIFLES in hand 29in 8tw 1.25 bull with brakes
and exactly identical loaded rounds with powder and 245 berges projetiles a real range like
Desert Marksman of Idaho or the Florida 2mile Immokalee which tracks the full 2 miles
Plane Is standing by.
😎
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Why would I go to Florida when there are rifles available here and "King of 2 Mile" was shot less then a month ago in this country? We don't lack the ranges and this is a 1 mile conversation. Also there is no such thing as identical rifles...with different chambers. You ID is showing through.
Don't change my parameters and cry foul. Maybe myself and I Dont Care About You will go to the range and post about all the fun we had ringing gongs.
 
rugbydave said:
Everyone here is wrong, all the powder manfs, load data, etc is all wrong and only Adam here knows what's up... yeah... :rolleyes:

It's wild to watch someone put out such detailed dissertations that just aren't so. I guess next time I need load data instead of calling Capstone I'll just msg Adam the all-knowing :ROFLMAO:
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🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
prove it otherwise find the mistakes..
 
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ICEDSHOT said:
Who are you trying to impress? I mean that as a genuine question. "Basic shop-floor background" might be more credit then your audience deserves if you think your intellect far surpasses that of the general firearms community regarding Tikka's.
I was going to seat a heavy, high b.c. bullet in my .308 win but now I fear a lawsuit from Hornady due to patent infringement on the 300 PRC.

I enjoy internet debates but I like real world accountability better, so I challenge you to a shoot off at my local range. I will pay for your guest pass and will book 2 benches at the 1 mile range. There are shot markers set up so we can post the results for all to see (assuming you can hit 4x4' at a mile). The rifles used will be posted with action, chamber, barrel, length and chassis as well as ammo with cases, powder, primer and the bullet used. The shot marker will record velocity at target and the muzzle velocity will be recorded by a Garmin or Labradar radar. We can limit the round count to 10 rounds with 2 sighters. I am able to have 2 guests so if anyone with a 300 Norma mag wants to come and join in you would be welcome as well.
If this challenge is too much for you, I will send you and private invite for the next mile long competition and you can join anonymously and compete against a group of people. Some with "stock" guns and plastic magazines.
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You aggressively pushed for a challenge until a real ballistics realist showed up and applied the actual scientific method.

The second I isolated the case container as the sole variable—requiring identical 29-inch, 1:8 twist bull barrels, identical weights, a 4-round randomized powder audit to stop you from faking a dangerous over-pressure load, and full international tracking logistics—you folded like a cheap lawn chair.

You wanted a challenge to see which cartridge setup actually has the structural efficiency to stay supersonic, see which one runs out of gas first through the transonic barrier, and see who dominates on true, un-cheatable total distance.

Anyone can plunk a local 1-mile gong with local wind luck and a customized cheater rig. But the physics engine and continuous Doppler radar tracking don’t care about your forum bravado emotions.

You waved the white flag because your 3.735” short-seated, powder-crushing .300 Norma setup squanders its volume and hits a hard structural wall, while my 3.850” CIP mag Howa build is engineered to cruise cleanly past a mile. Enjoy your casual 'fun day' at the local range with your block-list buddy. The math completely left you behind......AGAIN!
😎
 
adamthebad said:
You aggressively pushed for a challenge until a real ballistics realist showed up and applied the actual scientific method.

The second I isolated the case container as the sole variable—requiring identical 29-inch, 1:8 twist bull barrels, identical weights, a 4-round randomized powder audit to stop you from faking a dangerous over-pressure load, and full international tracking logistics—you folded like a cheap lawn chair.

You wanted a challenge to see which cartridge setup actually has the structural efficiency to stay supersonic, see which one runs out of gas first through the transonic barrier, and see who dominates on true, un-cheatable total distance.

Anyone can plunk a local 1-mile gong with local wind luck and a customized cheater rig. But the physics engine and continuous Doppler radar tracking don’t care about your forum bravado emotions.

You waved the white flag because your 3.735” short-seated, powder-crushing .300 Norma setup squanders its volume and hits a hard structural wall, while my 3.850” CIP mag Howa build is engineered to cruise cleanly past a mile. Enjoy your casual 'fun day' at the local range with your block-list buddy. The math completely left you behind......AGAIN!
😎
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There no until. The challenge still stands but YOU change my rules and claim its me backing out. Put up or shut up. I saw when PGW Steve showed up and talking ballistics, I have no idea who you are and suspect you have never shot past 300 yards.
Let me lower the expectations greatly. This should be real easy for you to prove. Post a 10 shot target in the stickied 300 yard challenge above and show me that you actually own a gun that you can shoot at this relatively short distance.
I have my doubts that you aren't more then a AI bot with no real experience. Your post have the calling cards of spotting AI content. Either you are AI or worse, a pseudo intellectual using AI to fain intellect.
 
ICEDSHOT said:
There no until. The challenge still stands but YOU change my rules and claim its me backing out. Put up or shut up. I saw when PGW Steve showed up and talking ballistics, I have no idea who you are and suspect you have never shot past 300 yards.
Let me lower the expectations greatly. This should be real easy for you to prove. Post a 10 shot target in the stickied 300 yard challenge above and show me that you actually own a gun that you can shoot at this relatively short distance.
I have my doubts that you aren't more then a AI bot with no real experience. Your post have the calling cards of spotting AI content. Either you are AI or worse, a pseudo intellectual using AI to fain intellect.
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🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣....yet AGAIN
 
wallz said:
Our range in PG is working on extending from the current 1370 ish meters to 1600ish meters. I know that it may be a year or so before things actually happen, so I have a bit of time, but want to do some leg work and figuring before hand.

I have a current 6 dasher, that I know is just not going to be capable to ringing steel out there consistently, so want to start dreaming of another build to reach 1600 consistently. I know it all can reach, but the key work consistent!

I have a current defiance action that sits as my hunting rifle in 6.5 PRC, that I could spin on a new barrel and use. The set up has a non threaded 22" carbon barrel that I really don't want to shoot out to ring steel with, plus would rather have a break on the end. The few rounds I would need to shoot before hunting season to reset the barrel and scope is a minor detail for me, so not really a factor.

It is a short action, magnum bolt head so it might limit me. I would probably go with a single feed sled in the action, so not concerned with the mag length. I have some new Lapua brass sitting that I could use if I went 6.5 PRC.

Should I stick with the 6.5 PRC and push the 153.5 Berger bullet with it out there, or drop the idea of using the short action and going to a long action, which would mean a new stock as well??? Or is there another alternative in the short action magnum bolt head I would be better served with????

I was recently reading about the 30XC, 338, 338 improved, but don't know if I really want to subject myself to that level of recoil. I also use a 450 BM for hunting and know the recoil pulse, but don't really want constant 50 round strings of recoil to deal with in that range. I know the 6 dasher is kinda spoiling me right now.

The 7 PRC has also been on my radar.
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ICEDSHOT said:
Maybe myself and I Dont Care About You will go to the range and post about all the fun we had ringing gongs.
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(y)


adamthebad said:
The second I isolated the case container as the sole variable—requiring identical 29-inch, 1:8 twist bull barrels, identical weights, a 4-round randomized powder audit to stop you from faking a dangerous over-pressure load, and full international tracking logistics
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LOL. Who has a setup with "full international tracking logistics"? Because I 100% guarantee that you don't. Nobody outside of a govt or major ballistics lab has the means to track a bullet through all of its flight over the distances we are talking about. At this point you are just talking out your azz.

Also what the hell is "full international tracking logistics", what does that even mean? What does international have to do with tracking a bullet downrange? And how is that logistics? I notice that you love to insert big sounding words into sentences where they don't make any sense except to sound big and intellectual. Is English not your first language?
 
salcal23 said:
You do realize the max COAL on a CIP length mag is 3.750 right? 3.850 is the outside measurement
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You are pulling a classic bait-and-switch by projecting the strict structural claustrophobia of a fat . 300 Norma Magnum container onto a modern, linear .300 PRC engine......bylooking at the actual engineering blueprints, working from the inside out:

No.1) The Cartridge Runway:
Because the .300 Norma features a massive, oversized .585" case head, standard sheet-metal magazines (like MDT's .338LM/.300NM lines) are forced to use thickened internal guide walls and heavy front binder blocks just to keep that fat case tracking straight without tilting. That internal armor is what completely steals your runway, choking your maximum loading space down to that restricted 3.735" to 3.750" ceiling you keep singing about.


No.2) The .300 PRC Advantage:
Because the PRC utilizes a highly efficient, standard-width .532" footprint, its dedicated CIP magazine shells do not need those space-stealing internal side blocks. A true .300 PRC CIP magazine leaves a completely open, unblocked internal runway clearing up to 3.840"+ internally. This allows a handloader running ultra-long projectiles like the 245gr Berger EOL to seat them cleanly forward, maximizing net powder volume and keeping the bullet from acting like a piston. If the inside max was 3.750" like you claim, standard factory .300 PRC ammo (which has a SAAMI max spec of 3.700") would have a useless 0.050" of clearance.

No.3) The Magazine Casing & Magwell:
The sheet steel walls of a premium box are roughly 0.035" thick on each side. When you add those steel walls to the 3.840"+ internal clearance, the physical exterior length of the metal box itself measures right around 3.850 inches. Because a steel magazine box cannot friction-bind under field conditions, the physical cutout in the aluminum chassis frame--the magwell opening--is precision-machined to be roughly 3.900 inches long to accept that box shell

My S.A. Gen 7 chassis natively cuts a wide 3.900" magwell opening to accept a clean steel 3.850" box shell, giving my long-loaded 245gr rounds a full internal runway to feed and cycle flawlessly with zero uncompressed powder bottlenecks.

It kinda seems you are trapped inside the feeding defects of your own fat-case architecture and trying to force what I have as rifle to live in your restricted world. When you have time grab a digital caliper and measure a real CIP magwell before trying to write the rules.

By the way, any luck on the GRT feedback yet??
Or did the software's net capacity fields and bolt thrust metrics layout the exact compressed powder nightmare I told you it would?

Near 10%± up the sides of a sunk 245 berger that is totally wasted energy to push the Berger, but fantastic energy to pound the bolt face an̈d lugs!

Cheers
 
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I Dont Care About You said:
(y)



LOL. Who has a setup with "full international tracking logistics"? Because I 100% guarantee that you don't. Nobody outside of a govt or major ballistics lab has the means to track a bullet through all of its flight over the distances we are talking about. At this point you are just talking out your azz.

Also what the hell is "full international tracking logistics", what does that even mean? What does international have to do with tracking a bullet downrange? And how is that logistics? I notice that you love to insert big sounding words into sentences where they don't make any sense except to sound big and intellectual. Is English not your first language?
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🥱
 
salcal23 said:
You do realize the max COAL on a CIP length mag is 3.750 right? 3.850 is the outside measurement
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You do realize we are all arguing with a guy so "special" that he wasn't able to figure out that a CIP mag wouldn't fit in the chassis he ordered for his Howa (even though compatibility is listed on the MDT website), waited a month+ to even try it and when he got refused a refund (since he was past 30 days) he took things to the consumer rights tribunal. That's the kinda guy who has time to constantly post his ridiculously long (and incorrect) rants. Unfortunately this thread has been totally derailed by this retardation but such is the internet, I guess :rolleyes:
 
rugbydave said:
You do realize we are all arguing with a guy so "special" that he wasn't able to figure out that a CIP mag wouldn't fit in the chassis he ordered for his Howa (even though compatibility is listed on the MDT website), waited a month+ to even try it and when he got refused a refund (since he was past 30 days) he took things to the consumer rights tribunal. That's the kinda guy who has time to constantly post his ridiculously long (and incorrect) rants. Unfortunately this thread has been totally derailed by this retardation but such is the internet, I guess :rolleyes:
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Yep...30 days before i ordered to make sure that everything was kosher the email confirmed By sales assued me it would fit And
when they put the order together they never noticed it was out .of off spec...simple calll/ email would have been cool
then they refunded the money...
🥱🥱
From a V bedding to a Full Bedding
😎
And still doent change the physics
🤣
 
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rugbydave said:
You do realize we are all arguing with a guy so "special" that he wasn't able to figure out that a CIP mag wouldn't fit in the chassis he ordered for his Howa (even though compatibility is listed on the MDT website), waited a month+ to even try it and when he got refused a refund (since he was past 30 days) he took things to the consumer rights tribunal. That's the kinda guy who has time to constantly post his ridiculously long (and incorrect) rants. Unfortunately this thread has been totally derailed by this retardation but such is the internet, I guess :rolleyes:
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I forgot about that clown! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
 
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