What is a 'printed action' 'trued action'?

To be competitive at the short ranges (300 to 600 meters) the rifle has to shoot a real 1/2 moa. This allows a little room for error and still stay in the V ring. To be truly competitive on the 300 meter ISSF target, the rifle and shooter have to be able to shoot a real 3/8 moa for ten shots. Again, this gives you a little magin for error (though not much). These shoots are the closest thing we have to short range BR and rifle requirements are high.
At long range, the rifle and shooter will have to be able to shoot at the 3/4 minute level to do well. At long range, it becomes less a matter of making all good shots and more a matter of not making real bad ones. It is not too uncommon to see all V's shot at 700 and 800 meters but is rare at 900 meters.
My best rifle ( the 308 Defrippulator) will shoot ten shot groups under .3 at 100 yds and under 1 inch at 300 meters. This rifle is nothing more or less than a 1970's style heavy bench rifle and would have been a winning BR rifle in 1971.
The other rifles are mostly just solid 1/2 minute rifles or maybe a little better. One of them, a 6.5x55 on an old pre-war action, is not that good and is more of a 5/8 moa rifle. 300 meter groups are usually around 1 3/4 to 2" for ten shots. I would be unable to win a 300 meter match with this one but usually have a chance at long range.
I have seen a whole bunch of Remington 700 varminters which I feel would have been quite competitive. Certainly, some of the Senderos shot well enough that I think a good shooter could win with them at local levels.
I think some of the Ruger 77 Varmint/target models could be competitive.
Now, to be competitive at world class levels is another matter. The rifle has to shoot very well and the shooter has to have better nerves than I. Regards, Bill.
 
Great info from a very experienced shooter.

If I may add, the key is can the rifle produce this level of consistency when it is hot?

Many comps are shot in the warmer months unlike the Farky and barrels will get hot after 17 to 25rds have been shot in a short period of time.

Alot of very good barrels loose their composure as it heats up. The main reason why my F class rifles wear a barrel block - think honking big heat sink. Even this gets pretty warm after a "relay" shot in the summer.

So test your rifle as it would compete. If you need to blast 5rds in 15secs while still retaining accuracy, test and practise.

If you need to shoot a whole whack of bullets on a 30C day, test that too. Also, watch the ammo. Some powders/loads don't like getting hot either. Why I avoid loads pushed to the absolute max.

Popping primers really hurts your concentration.

Test as you would compete and see what happens.

Bill, isn't the 900yd target used at both 700 and 800yds?

Jerry
 
Yes it is ( that's meters, not yards though.). At 700 meters it looks impossible to miss the V but I manage nicely. The location of the 700 meter firing point at the Homestead range seems to put you right in a tricky wind situation or something. I find the indicators to be more honest at 800.
The hot barrel point is a good one. I simply won't use a barrel which appears to be heat sensitive or which has to be fouled. Not if I am serious about the match anyway.
Barrel blocks are a good system. Especially with long barrels. With barrel blocks, the action has only to contain the cartridge and carry the firing mechanism. It doesn't have to support the barrel. Barrel block were, at one time, quite common for short range unlimited rifles. Then, as the light rifles started performing so well, many heavy rifles were built without the blocks. It is interesting that blocks have remained popular for 1000 yd BR and "F" class and they are working very well. I've been toying with the idea of building a blocked rifle but need to find the time first. Regards, Bill.
 
With 10KG to work with and a busted shoulder, I figured it was a good place to put the weight.

I didn't see much point in lead ballast to get the weight up. For balance, yes. But just to raise the weight, a big waste.

A super big barrel was plan B but the match barrels I was interested in came in the standard 1 1/4". Plus a 2" barrel would stress the action to no end.

You would certainly find out how much 'bend' that bolt head had :)

Homestead sounds like another match I would like to attend. So little time

Good luck this weekend.
Jerry
 
Thank you very much for the information Bill. It's very helpful. I think I will use 10 shot groups after I finish working up my loads and working out some kinks in my equipment. Don't think I can get to the accuracy level you are talking about, but at least it gives me something to shoot for. Maybe get close before October. Right now I'm trying to decide if I should practice at 200 as I can usually see the bullet holes. At 300 I can't see them when the mirage starts running. The targets at the range I'm shooting at are quite low. So, the mirage can be murder. I don't mind practicing in it, but would like to be able to adjust from my first shots like in a match and then see if I can hold the X ring by reading conditions.
Interesting about the 6.5X55. I owned and converted about 14 Swedes to hunting rifles over a number of years before I left shooting. It is a great hunting caliber. Never got them to be as accurate as the 6.5 action you are shooting. They were very good though, and I could get most of them to shoot close to a MOA with the original barrel. Thanks again for taking the time. Fred
 
Since I don't think this thread could get anymore hijacked than it already is.... :D

Bill and Fred, Will you be attending Kamloops this weekend?
 
Fred, my trick was to 'dope' the conditions off the aiming point. I knew my groups would be somewhere else but as long as the overall group size was inside the 10/X ring, I was happy.

If funds allow, I will see if digiscoping my spotting scope can give me a live feed to my target.

The wireless systems are really cool but can get pricey.
Jerry

PS Will be doing the LR shoot in Summerland this weekend. Hope to get some good hits at 2000yds and beyond. Got enough elevation to 2500yds. Not sure if the 6.5 bullet will make the trip.
 
CyaN1de said:
Since I don't think this thread could get anymore hijacked than it already is.... :D

Bill and Fred, Will you be attending Kamloops this weekend?
Click to expand...

Going to make the trek to Summerland to shoot with Jerry and the other nutz. It's fun to watch the big boomers take a shot and then frantically look to see which mountain they hit. Things could have worked out for Kamloops, but then the date changed for Summerland. It's getting time to look for some practice matches.
 
mysticplayer said:
Fred, my trick was to 'dope' the conditions off the aiming point. I knew my groups would be somewhere else but as long as the overall group size was inside the 10/X ring, I was happy.

If funds allow, I will see if digiscoping my spotting scope can give me a live feed to my target.

The wireless systems are really cool but can get pricey.
Jerry

PS Will be doing the LR shoot in Summerland this weekend. Hope to get some good hits at 2000yds and beyond. Got enough elevation to 2500yds. Not sure if the 6.5 bullet will make the trip.
Click to expand...


Hi Jerry, The live feed is a great idea. Price certainly is a consideration for me too. I'm really tempted to make a better spotting scope next on my list. The first time I looked through twin Kowa's I fell in love, but good optics cost too. My old 70 mm Spacemaster is good enough for most things I'm doing, but it won't let me do what I want at 300 with the wrong conditions. In fact, I think my 24X Leupold (PS. Noticed you still haven't bought one!) is a bit better.
I am forced to do exactly what you are for practice, but would like to come closer to match conditions. Grouping off your first hold without seeing the bullet seems different to me and I would like to build confidence that I can adjust from my first and second shot then hold the 10 ring before I get to the Farquy with the rest of you sharks.
 
I just finished talking to Morphy and I will be heading out to Kamloops on Friday. I'll bring three rifles but not the 308. My plan is to concentrate on the 303 British this weekend but I may want to shoot the CIL 950T as well (It's not really a Savage!). Regards, Bill
 
peterdobson said:
It really doesn't have to cost a fortune to have an accurate rifle. My gunsmith trues Rem 700's, including recutting threads, lapping locking lugs, truing bolt and action face for $95. Chambering, crowning and installing barrel $135. Bedding $75.
His rifles have won at least 6 National Precision Rifle championships and countless Provincial matches.
Used Rem 700 action $300, Gaillard barrel $350, Sam's gunsmithing $300. CG 2-stage trigger, $300 or $330 with safety, trigger work extra.
The Rem 700 is a good platform as there are more top aftermarket parts and they work!

Regards,

Peter Dobson
Hirsch Precision Inc.
Lapua in Canada
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Dropped off my Stevens 200 today.

Granted, I am having a 10FP barrel installed and not a match barrel to save a few bucks.

:evil:
 
Read half this thread and don't think I'll ever check out a BR or F-Class match.......doesn't sound like any fun anymore. It sounds too much like a full time career and not enough like a weekend sport. ;)
 
Backwoods said:
Read half this thread and don't think I'll ever check out a BR or F-Class match.......doesn't sound like any fun anymore. It sounds too much like a full time career and not enough like a weekend sport. ;)
Click to expand...

well Backwoods I wouldn't throw in the towel over reading one thread! If you haven't tried either you should give them a shot even though I think BR is more specialized and requires a competely different rig setup. It shouldn't deter you from simply trying it or showing up and watching a match or two and sometimes you might get real lucky and someone will let you shoot their rig... same thing with f-class.

In the world of sports for example baseball, tennis and golf you have your pro circuits, semi pro, minors and your pickup games. The fact that some people make a living at it shouldn't be the deciding factor that you wouldn't ever consider trying your hand at it.

It only gets as complicated as YOU want to make it. Some just show up shoot, talk with the guys, even eat lunch with them and then head back home to the regular grind.
 
Since you are in Calgary, go visit an F class match at the Homestead range.

I have met a few shooters from there and can say they are good people. More then willing to extend a hand to help a newbie - they have for me. I am sure that Inspector on this board would be happy to lend a hand.

As far as taking lots of time, it can but that is also part of the hobby. Some take it very seriously obsessing over every little detail. Others just crack open a box of Fed GM ammo and have at it.

Whatever works for you...

Jerry
 
well now

post 68 and 74 were quite good posts but I cannot quote them here.

post 88 was very funny thanks

why was cynide not banned for his posts, is he a friend of someone important.

maybe the Br guys get frustrated but the support for MP is quite good to see but unwarrented.

I will try to help but of course in my soon to be posted


Beginning Benchrest--- buy the book you will no doubt come on and flame away

good to meet you all, even if I am an eletist.

now i know why rick does not want to post

I will however try to post some Br topics and if they do not work I am out of here,

so please flame away when I post cause most of you really do not want to here the truth.

If MP is sssssssssssssssoooooooooo great then go show me the gun that shoots in the 2's for 20 shots

I say not a chance in conditions that you go next saturday and shoot every half hour until 5 groups are fired, then measure them

If MP is correct he can indeed set BR short range records in the usa and canada

jeff:weird:
 
jeff, in case you have not read my past posts, let me clarify yet one more time.

When I do my rifle testing, I do so under calm conditions as I am testing the MECHANICAL accuracy of the rifle/load instead of my ability to dope wind.

Almost all my testing is done at 200yds as I am concerned about the effects at longer distances.

Under those conditions, I have had my rifles shoot in the 2's over multiple groups (that would be 0.598" Center to Center or less). A few have shot better. Yes, I measure my groups with calipers and take the worse reading.

I do test as I would compete (and I do compete). For F class, I do up to 20rds groups to ensure things stay where I want over the length of most relays.

For a hunting rifle, it will be 3rds. For a varminter, it might be a whole lot more.

I have posted on numerous occasions that my wind reading skills are at best average and some days mediocre.

Soooooo, I have offered my information based on that context and testing - mechanical accuracy as done by me. Somehow or other, it becomes me being able to shoot like that on any given Sunday under any match conditions.

Or even worse, because I have not done this under match conditions, a match that you or your peers can validate, my information is flawed, exaggerated or simply false.

What I post is based on my testing and it is not just one instance. I have built multiple rifles to test certain ideas and concepts to try and remove the chance of luck.

I have posted pictures of targets with all manner of rd count, not just 3rds as some have focused on. I have posted my entire work up of two rifles with all the good and bad shown.

Was every group a hummer? NOPE, some were just horrid. But when the rifle was tuned, the groups were measured and results posted.

We can go on and on. What's the point? We are not answering the post, nor helping the person posting and really causing alot of ill will.

Not good for the board, not good for the sport.

When I disagree with data/info in a post, I stick to debating that point, not how I may or may not feel about the poster. That is quite irrelevant. Trying to win a debate by getting personal isn't my idea of a good time.

I have come away from several of these debates with new knowledge which has at times changed how I approached or thought about a problem. That is positive and helpful.

Arguably, the counter party also gains new insight that may or may not influence/benefit their shooting. Sometimes, they even come my way.

An exchange of ideas not insults.

I look forward to your post as I think there is so much the SR BR community can offer, as it has to my shooting over these years. Flame you, why? That is not my style.

And to think that sharing your thoughts will only be met with angry resistances is unfortunate.

We are all trying to learn from each other... Not hack and nit pick at each post.

Jerry
 
Backwoods said:
Read half this thread and don't think I'll ever check out a BR or F-Class match.......doesn't sound like any fun anymore. It sounds too much like a full time career and not enough like a weekend sport. ;)
Click to expand...

Yes, well that was what I was afraid of. I can promise you that if any shooter, especially a new shooter were exposed to any of this utter elitist crap at any of our club gatherings or matches, I'd personally show the offending party a new use for a... never mind.

I'm so utterly disgusted by what I have read in these posts I could puke. I'm most displeased that a moderator didn't declare a cease fire and that this debate has fulminated into the very comments you have expressed - and I don't blame you.

To those that have similar feelings, I would like to personally promise you that if you are ever considering a Kamloops F-class, BR or TR match, I will personally make sure you your opinions reflect what the sport is REALLY about afterwards. We embrace three concepts that are sadly lacking here: sportsmanship, FUN and respect.
 
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