Two and Three Shot Benchrest

BCFred

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Having run out of ####, and mindful of some of the posts that have appeared in this neighbourhood, I began looking for my books on benchrest. Sadly, my stores appeared to have been depleted of shooting books generally. I would like to find the SOB that stole my Volume 1 of P.O. Ackleys' book, for example. Persevering after the initial shock of this loss, I found some benchrest books between a book on depression and a illustrated book on "Wildlife the World Over". I'll leave it to you to decide whether the location was appropriate. In fact, I will leave it to you to decide the meaning of things, or their appropriateness, in several instances below, too.
One big stunner of the day was finding in Glenn Newick's book that early (I use the word 'early' to avoid storms of protest and denial.;)) benchrest matches in Taftville, Connecticut were three shot matches and that even so august a personage as Harvey Donaldson said "This trip was worth our while." In fairness it is important to say that in some places the occasional ten shot group was fired as were 2 shot groups. You know, according to Newick, who may be losing whatever remains of his reputation in br because of this post, there was even a 40 shot match shot by C.W. Rowland. Of course, Rowland took "...more than a day..." to complete the group. Sadly, I could find no record of Savage's performing in any of these events, though I'm sure they were there, and right behind the winners too, if not in front. In case you have any doubts about this, I have to tell you I owned a Model 1894 303 Savage that could group 3 inches at 100 yards for an indeterminant, though small, number of shots. It just seems obvious to me it, or something like it, had to be there.
Warren Page, in his book, was mute on the issue of number of shots in group at these early matches. On the other hand, he may well be responsible (to blame?) for the trend toward greater numbers of shots being fired per group and greater numbers of groups. I infer this because of his article in Field and Stream in which he said that the 1/2 moa groups he was talking about be "Not for one wallet group, but for averages." On the other hand, he also said, "Not for every rifle every day all day..." Page provided a picture of a "world record" fired by Bob Wallack using his 22-250 and signed by 21 other shooters (I wonder why all those br guys had to sign it?:D). He described the "schism" (due to...guess?:() that resulted in the formation of IBS, resulting in two associations, the NBRSA being the other.
Times sure have changed! One is tempted to say that the reason today's benchrest crowd shoot five 5 shot groups is because they need more shots to hit something or to agree they have hit something. Unfortunately, however, the former is clearly not true, and, in my better moments:), I even have some doubts about the latter. I'm afraid our Savages will just have to shoot small groups containing higher numbers of shots today, in spite of winning, or coming second, in all those old bench rest matches.;)
 
Having run out of ####, and mindful of some of the posts that have appeared in this neighbourhood, I began looking for my books on benchrest. Sadly, my stores appeared to have been depleted of shooting books generally. I would like to find the SOB that stole my Volume 1 of P.O. Ackleys' book, for example. Persevering after the initial shock of this loss, I found some benchrest books between a book on depression and a illustrated book on "Wildlife the World Over". I'll leave it to you to decide whether the location was appropriate. In fact, I will leave it to you to decide the meaning of things, or their appropriateness, in several instances below, too.
One big stunner of the day was finding in Glenn Newick's book that early (I use the word 'early' to avoid storms of protest and denial.;)) benchrest matches in Taftville, Connecticut were three shot matches and that even so august a personage as Harvey Donaldson said "This trip was worth our while." In fairness it is important to say that in some places the occasional ten shot group was fired as were 2 shot groups. You know, according to Newick, who may be losing whatever remains of his reputation in br because of this post, there was even a 40 shot match shot by C.W. Rowland. Of course, Rowland took "...more than a day..." to complete the group. Sadly, I could find no record of Savage's performing in any of these events, though I'm sure they were there, and right behind the winners too, if not in front. In case you have any doubts about this, I have to tell you I owned a Model 1894 303 Savage that could group 3 inches at 100 yards for an indeterminant, though small, number of shots. It just seems obvious to me it, or something like it, had to be there.
Warren Page, in his book, was mute on the issue of number of shots in group at these early matches. On the other hand, he may well be responsible (to blame?) for the trend toward greater numbers of shots being fired per group and greater numbers of groups. I infer this because of his article in Field and Stream in which he said that the 1/2 moa groups he was talking about be "Not for one wallet group, but for averages." On the other hand, he also said, "Not for every rifle every day all day..." Page provided a picture of a "world record" fired by Bob Wallack using his 22-250 and signed by 21 other shooters (I wonder why all those br guys had to sign it?:D). He described the "schism" (due to...guess?:() that resulted in the formation of IBS, resulting in two associations, the NBRSA being the other.
Times sure have changed! One is tempted to say that the reason today's benchrest crowd shoot five 5 shot groups is because they need more shots to hit something or to agree they have hit something. Unfortunately, however, the former is clearly not true, and, in my better moments:), I even have some doubts about the latter. I'm afraid our Savages will just have to shoot small groups containing higher numbers of shots today, in spite of winning, or coming second, in all those old bench rest matches.;)


Very interesting, never though of it in that way!
 
more info

The New Lucian Cary On GUNS 1957 reprinted from TRUE the man's magazine chapter on Bench Rest Shooting said

1. in the nature of things a best group is apt to be a lucky goup. The average of five matches comes nearer to scientifc proof.

2.he spoke about the dishonest shooter , having got a few shots down there might, might fire the rest into the backstopand claim they had all gone through the break in the paper. For that matter an honest shooter can faiol to keep his count correctly. The answer is a long strip of wrapping paper, eight inches wide, driven by an electric motor,. This strip is behind the targets and moves only a mile or two an hour but it moves fast enough so that no matter how close the shots are on the record target are clustered they are separated on the moving strip so they can be counted. (and so on)

3.The typical BR rifle weighs between 15 and 19 pounds, twice as much as a big game rifle. The action is almost always of the bolt type--a winchester model 70, a remington 722, a mauseror a springfield.

just offered for interest.

next another book

jeff
 
The Ultimate in Rifle Presision by Townsend Whelen

1958 talks about history of BR shooting , measuring target, constructing a tournament, technique, firles, barrels, stock bedding, telescopic sights, bullets handloadin and more.

1. the Br rifle sometimes called open class weighs form 15 to 20 pounds

the caliber is almost 22

The most popular telescope sights are the 2 inch unertl, the lyman super target spot, and the baush & lomb BALVAR 24

2. spoke about 50 years earlier

3. spoke of wind being detrimental to high scores, and also hunting is done on windy days and so is the matches.
?Wind force and direction can be judged in various ways, by feel on the face and person. By the way it causes the wind and danger flags to stand out from their staffs. By its effect on leaves and grass. By the drift of smoke, either from chimneys, fires, or tabacco smoke. And lastly by mirage.

neat saying Naturally the shooter will make a rough estimate for wind and set his wind guage accordingly for his first shot. (he means the scope externally adjustable mounts)

4. the national match course of fire will be 5 10 shot matches at 100 and 5 ten shot matches at 200

the time limit is 15 minutes for the first match and then 12

the 5 shot matches are 10 and then 7 minimum time is 30 minutes between matches

5. in the advertisements 1956 10 shot 200 yards world record shot by homer culver 10 shots 200 yards .4016 caliber .222 using a douglas barrel

note it was at 3 oclock just on the outer edge of the ten ring

neat stuff

sorry about the typing I just tried to copy the printing, maybe it was off.

Jeff
 
About ten years afrter he di the "1/2 Minute rifle" article in F&G, Page did another article, this one discribing how the 1/2MOA agg that won the three gun aten years agot ( not Wollack's record group, but a ntional match agg) would have been good for about 20th place IIRC.
I'll have to dig it up.
Cat
 
1958 talks about history of BR shooting , measuring target, constructing a tournament, technique, firles, barrels, stock bedding, telescopic sights, bullets handloadin and more.

1. the Br rifle sometimes called open class weighs form 15 to 20 pounds

the caliber is almost 22

The most popular telescope sights are the 2 inch unertl, the lyman super target spot, and the baush & lomb BALVAR 24

2. spoke about 50 years earlier

3. spoke of wind being detrimental to high scores, and also hunting is done on windy days and so is the matches.
?Wind force and direction can be judged in various ways, by feel on the face and person. By the way it causes the wind and danger flags to stand out from their staffs. By its effect on leaves and grass. By the drift of smoke, either from chimneys, fires, or tabacco smoke. And lastly by mirage.

neat saying Naturally the shooter will make a rough estimate for wind and set his wind guage accordingly for his first shot. (he means the scope externally adjustable mounts)

4. the national match course of fire will be 5 10 shot matches at 100 and 5 ten shot matches at 200

the time limit is 15 minutes for the first match and then 12

the 5 shot matches are 10 and then 7 minimum time is 30 minutes between matches

5. in the advertisements 1956 10 shot 200 yards world record shot by homer culver 10 shots 200 yards .4016 caliber .222 using a douglas barrel

note it was at 3 oclock just on the outer edge of the ten ring

neat stuff

sorry about the typing I just tried to copy the printing, maybe it was off.

Jeff
The first modern BR match, according to page nine of that book
( in the west ) was in 1944 held by the Puget Sound Snipers Congress.
In the East , Harvet Donaldson got a match going in 1947 at Macias , New York, then aother at rhe Pine tre club at Johnstown on the labour Day weekend in 1947.

This book, BTW, the Jefferson and I are reading from , does not only describe modern BR shooting, but all types of target competion, and at one time was THE book on rifle accuracy.
it is very old, but if you can find a copy, grab it, it is well worth reading and studying!
Cat
 
The first modern BR match, according to page nine of that book
( in the west ) was in 1944 held by the Puget Sound Snipers Congress.
In the East , Harvet Donaldson got a match going in 1947 at Macias , New York, then aother at rhe Pine tre club at Johnstown on the labour Day weekend in 1947.

This book, BTW, the Jefferson and I are reading from , does not only describe modern BR shooting, but all types of target competion, and at one time was THE book on rifle accuracy.
it is very old, but if you can find a copy, grab it, it is well worth reading and studying!
Cat

Would appreciate very much a proper reference for the book. I have read something(s) written by Col. Townsend Whelen but don't recall whether I have his writings in my library. Have been looking throughout the house, but I still have alot of books and, sadly, many have been lost or thrown out over the years too. I recall losing a couple of boxes full while moving, which I still mourn. If memory serves, I believe I was reading about bullet testing on live pigs done by Whelen, but could be confusing this with other readings.
Recall reading too, that there was an East/West split in benchrest, or that the formation of the associations was along those lines. While Warren Page didn't discuss it in his book on accuracy, he obviously regretted the split, and was committed to shooting in events sponsored by both. I sympathized with his view, despite not being involved, because I have felt for a long time organizational development in shooting is not proactive enough, and that organizations are formed more on negative grounds than positive, i.e. we can't agree so we'll form an organization, or we don't like the way things are done, so we'll form an organization, or I don't like what other shooters are saying, so I'll stick with my little part of it. Starting from negatives, while possibly necessary in some instances, to me seems inferior to starting with a positive will to build something and is basically boring. Or, maybe I'm getting less interested in conflict as I age. I certainly find myself thinking; "Oh! Grow up!" more often lately. On the other hand, perhaps if we had been a little more proactive historically, and a little less inclined to fight with each other to the point of irrelevance, we wouldn't be in the fix we are today in Canada.
 
Puget Sound is where we shoot

at tacoma washington.

they have the oldest trphy in Benchrest, at least the oldest longest funning trophy from about 1944 or so

names like Allen Bench in april ( I finished 2nd by a thou on day one light vermint grand)

Manley Oakley in may

July ed fromback

July Sam Wilson Memorial

pretty neat stuff as the range is right in town and was opened in 1906 I believe, and fred meyers is only 14 blocks awaw for lunch and wallworld is 17 blocks away. The shooting range road 300 yeards to the south of the firing line has a fence about 10 feet east of the road. from that fence you have a 66 foot right of way developed into a street with houses on the east side and the range fence on the west.

the range has a (golf ball )type easement for shooting events on everybodies land title. they just sold 22 acres for 7 million

nice place to shoot, this year they hope to have electricity for campers (about 10 of them) and maybe hot water ,no showers but hot water not just a cold tap and 2 ####ters.

thought you might like to know

Jeff
 
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