what should I expect and am I doing this right? (groups)

caljay30

caljay30

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On the flip side, AB
Ok, just got my caliper and am figuring out this measuring thing. I've gone with measuring the outside holes and minusing the caliber strategy.

I'd also like to ask what would a good group be for shooting a factory Savage 12fv .308 with 168gr. Hornady Match Factory Ammo?? I'd like to know with everything being "factory" what is a good group and what is expecting too much as far as average groups?

These are my two best groups from my last day of shooting and yes there were worse ones with "fliers" all over the place. I'm still fairly new to this and working on my technique, hence I'm not as consistent yet as I would like to be. Also I know with factory ammo, there will be consistency problems there as well. I had also cleaned the bore and using the moly bullets, I think it took a bit before it finally got into a grove again too. I see guys shooting all different ways so I should include that right now I use a front bag rest only for support.

Thanks for the input!

group2-1.jpg

group1-1.jpg
 
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I think your results are typical for factory ammo, but two tight groups out of ten is more likely to have a "chance" component to them.

Consider a good quality bipod you can lean into (Harris) and consider using a heavy rear bag to try and eliminate the human variables that can wreck a good group. It will give you a better measure of what both you and the gun are doing.

(and double the fun a roll your own!!! :))
 
What does one hole by itself measure in that target? Does it measure .308"? I know a lot of people say "just subtract the caliber... but in reality you should be subtracting what one hole actually measures.... sometimes it may be the caliber but more often it is not.
 
I would say your on the right track, but when you can make them sub-MOA groups consistant and repeatable then you will really be onto something. but from the pics I would say your gun is shooting well, but get a rear rest they make a world of difference.
 
guntech said:
What does one hole by itself measure in that target? Does it measure .308"? I know a lot of people say "just subtract the caliber... but in reality you should be subtracting what one hole actually measures.... sometimes it may be the caliber but more often it is not.
Click to expand...

I did measure an individual hole and it's sooooo close to .308 that I could write off the difference by the hair change in what I may or may not consider the exact outside of the hole. So I just decided to go with .308 and be done with it. However, I'll continue to try to measure the holes as it did seem like a more exact way of getting it right.

I know the groups I've put up are the "lucky" ones, which is so much better looking than the "unlucky" groups. ;) I'm just trying to find a good guide for what is a good and what is a bad average for shooting all factory.

Good point on the rear bag, it would make it easier to take movement out of the equation.
 
I think it is just great what you are doing and admire what you have to look forward to! Getting up at 4 in the morning, for example, and going to the range looking for calm air to get your zero and test groups. Then staying right through til supper time because the morning stuff wasn't good enough. (Watch the looks from your family when this happens.) Realizing all of a sudden, contrary to your previous belief, that the world is never stable. I put a rifle in a military holder once during one of those early morning vigils at the KTSA range and centered the crosshairs on the head of the turkey gong385 meters away. After the sun came up, and the mirage started running, the point of aim was a foot and half off the target. (I still walk with the 30 degree list that resulted from this.) You will find yourself looking at roads and fields and mountains in an entirely different way, too. My world even now bounces and wiggles alot and I still can't make sense out of it either. In fact, my rifle bounces and wiggles and sometimes I can't tell which is moving the rifle or the world. I genuinely wish better for you. Somebody has to figure it all out. You will enjoy ducking all your non-shooting friends and partners, most of whom are soon to be gone, shooting is a good way to test for stayers, to get just a little more time at the range. Shooting is a bit like golf in this way, actually. It's fun planning carefully, while nobody is looking, how you can get to just one more dingy range in a far off corner of the land. Watching conversations with your non-shooting friends suddenly go silent as their minds try desperately to decide just what in the h*ll your talking about is another pleasure. (You will notice with some of them, providing you look closely enough, that they are afraid they actually might have some idea what you are talking about, and are disturbed by what it is.). Another great experience is returning to consciousness after thinking about some current loading problem and realizing that you are at the supper table and everyone is staring at you because they have been talking to you and you haven't answered for half an hour. Working overtime and on weekends to buy just one more box of shells is fun. You will remember with fondness the time you made the inevitable decision to load your own, too. When you finally decided that factory loads couldn't possibly be as good as the reloads for your rifle and it would be be less expensive. You will experience even more poignant memories of this time as you recall gasping in wonder while a whole new world opened to you and the money kept pouring out. (Save money my a*s! Looking at your bank account is always a way to experience intense emotion in this game.) Sneaking peaks at glossy shooting magazines describing the latest minx to arrive on the scene, while in the bathroom and hiding from those closest to you, is great fun. Another sneak is casually visiting the local gunshop while in town on house related matters, but this is too painful to reveal right now. It ranks right up there with the pain involved in dealing with guys flogging their current paramour so they can buy another. I'm currently considering a new barrel, with the accompanying rechambering that goes with it, and trying to stretch for a second hand light varmint rig to start another addiction. You will be doing this yourself soon. In fact, just as you get one rifle working you will sell it to get another. Go figure... Jeez, my wife is coming up the stairs while I'm typing this! :runaway:) Meeting people in strange and forbidden places who previously were complete strangers to you is a wonderful new experience. You will truly enjoy the instantaneous rapport and engaging in long, low voiced, intense conversations. Volume goes up as your hearing goes down over the years, and this leads to a whole other set of great experiences. You will enjoy leaving these conversations depleted, with little idea of what was said, and with a background of guilt because of what time it is. Getting freely given advice that actually does help sometimes, from people who are just as helpless in their addiction as you are in yours ranks up there with the positives somewhere. The bursts of hope as something clicks and some rounds touch at the target end and you really can justify measuring the outside of the group and subtracting the caliber to get the center to center group size is a peak experience. A peak experience that is eclipsed by the upwelling of rage, disappointment and sadness that inevitaby occurs as your honey quits on you and the groups open up. What follows is an inevitable frantic struggle to regain control that has its own pleasureable aspects. (Rage can come from a change in conditions too and, paradoxically, may even be more intense than equipment problems. After all, you can always buy new equipment.) Another enjoyable emotion that is often ignored is the complete jealousy and envy you feel as the guy next to you plunks shot after shot into the 10 ring while your @#!!!***&&&& rifle doesn't do sh*t. These feelings are accompanied by a deep sense of shame that is good for personal development, as you realize what a poor sport you're being and how you should be better than that. (The shame happens also as others, who invariably have shot better scores, ask you how things went, or watch you post your score, but it has a different flavour to it. It can come as these hypocrites express their phony commiseration with your bad result too, the #@@%%#$##) Yup, kid just keep going in the direction you are going! It's good for human relations. All the rest of us here are going the same route and you can see how we are turning out:).
 
Uhhhh, what is it about that water in BC, anyway?Anyway, those are pretty good groups, what I have found is my groups are consistant when using handloads,whereas when using factory ammo, I get good groups sometimes, but not consistantly!
Quality handloads eliminate the ammo quality variable.The secret is in finding a handload and a bullet that your rifle likes!
 
caljay30 said:
I did measure an individual hole and it's sooooo close to .308 that I could write off the difference by the hair change in what I may or may not consider the exact outside of the hole. So I just decided to go with .308 and be done with it. However, I'll continue to try to measure the holes as it did seem like a more exact way of getting it right.

I know the groups I've put up are the "lucky" ones, which is so much better looking than the "unlucky" groups. ;) I'm just trying to find a good guide for what is a good and what is a bad average for shooting all factory.

Good point on the rear bag, it would make it easier to take movement out of the equation.
Click to expand...

If your bullet holes were really .308" then two bullet holes just touching would make a .308" group. For your group to be .317" the gap between holes would be .009". That's not what the picture shows, so obviously your measuring technique needs work. Sorry, but it doesn't pass the logic test.
 
Ok, I took a shot at measuring holes on this group and measured the group again and this is what I got. I do want to get into reloading, just have to commit to the space and time to learn.... so much to learn about shooting and having to learn reloading is mind boggling all at once... hence the challenge that I like so much.

IMG_0529.jpg


IMG_0530.jpg
 
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caljay30 said:
Ok, I took a shot at measuring holes on this group and measured the group again and this is what I got. I do want to get into reloading, just have to commit to the space and time to learn.... so much to learn about shooting and having to learn reloading is mind boggling all at once... hence the challenge that I like so much.

IMG_0529.jpg


IMG_0530.jpg
Click to expand...

The second result looks to be much closer. Though it probably seems like splitting hairs, and is, it's not much use measuring groups to the thousandth then using a technique that induces a 40 thou error.
Regarding room for reloading, I started with a press mounted to a square of wood that I could C-clamp to table-tops, dresser tops or just use on my lap.Everything I used could fit in a cardboard box. Later I graduated to a tiny dedicated table that could be stored away. Today I have a reloading room with 20 feet of counter-top 4 presses and more clutter and junk than I could ever use. More space isn't necessarily a big advantage, don't let lack of it stop you from reloading.
 
punkrockboy said:
Uhhhh, what is it about that water in BC, anyway?Anyway, those are pretty good groups, what I have found is my groups are consistant when using handloads,whereas when using factory ammo, I get good groups sometimes, but not consistantly!
Quality handloads eliminate the ammo quality variable.The secret is in finding a handload and a bullet that your rifle likes!
Click to expand...

A good question. All I can say is I woke up really happy with the world that day, liked the topic of this thread and wanted to bring some humour into the world. Did you hear the crash? It was abit like waking up after a big drunk this morning and reading that thread. Sorry guys, I'll try to do better (write less and be more on topic) next time.:redface:

Want to second the idea of handloads. I like the groups that were shot. Good measuring is important, especially for hand loading. I use my calipers for checking case length, but often break down and use a steel ruler or tape measure for keeping track of my own groups. If reloading comes on the agenda, and a guy is serious about it, then two musts are a 1 inch micrometer and a 1 inch ball micrometer. Good ones are pricey, but there are probably guys around here who can say what a good middle of the road tool is. Mine are Starrett. fred
 
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