Bear Defense Rifle

[Foxer]

I like bear spray because you can still use it while he has your leg in his mouth rather than the realy long legal shotgun that you can't seem to point at him as he's dragging you around because it's too long. Keep it on your belt.

Most bear attacks you won't see coming until it's too late anyway.

That's probably not inaccurate, but the one problem with spray is that it's very common for bears (and this applies mostly to black bears) to break off after being sprayed, only to attack again in 5 or 10 mins as you try to leave the area. I do carry spray, but i like having a gun handy because if i do have to use the spray and they take off, i'll be ready and waiting to end the debate permanently

 

[Mike Oxbig]

Interesting.
I figured they'd just go cry somewhere with the eyes and lungs burning and all.
I bet a second shot wouldn't give the same effect as they'd be expecting it and still on fire from the first anyway.

If you read this somewhere i'd be interested in reading also. I'm a spray over guns kinda hiker as i usually have the GF and pooch with me and slugging allong a 12 gauge kinda takes the whole romance outa the hike (probably because i want to shoot everything we pass by). Oh well. Boys will be boys

 

[Foxer]

I bet a second shot wouldn't give the same effect as they'd be expecting it and still on fire from the first anyway.

Actually, according to actual user accounts it's still pretty effective. No real difference than the first time.

But the challenge is this - even a big can has maybe 3 or possibly 4 sustained bursts worth of spray. And that's assuming it's pretty new and still fully pressurized. ANd when people panic a bit, that is often down to 2 sprays worth as they tend to overspray.

There have been several cases of people running out of spray as or just before they reach the safety of their car or home or whatever.

If you read this somewhere i'd be interested in reading also

herrero's and shelton's books are generally accepted as being pretty definitive on the subject, and herrero documents several first hand accounts of the use of sprays and the effects. Especially the 're-attack' problem with black bears. He notes that little issue is more prevelant with blacks than with grizzlies, who tend to not re-engage, but no one knows why.

I've read a lot of case studies where they've used sprays and/or guns. Both have their strenghts, both have their weaknesses. Its' difficult to compare the two accurately because of course there's no way to simulate the results accurately, and no one person will ever be attacked often enough by bears to actually be an 'expert' from first hand experience as to what works best when.

If you're concerned about bears re-attacking, but don' want to carry a firearm, then at least make sure you've got TWO bottles of spray between you. And always get the bigger ones, not the little ones.

If you're going to use sprays, know how to use the spray properly. Don't aim it like a pistol, fire from the hip with the forearm extended forward (you don't want it 'head level' when you fire). Aim by walking the spray onto hte bear - it's a nice wide spray, you won't need to adjust much. Range has to be SHORT - (as in 'you better have big brass ones' short.) Keep your bursts short, no more than 1 second or so, don't panic and use all your spray in one go. And GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE and to safety soonest!

Pros of guns include -

Range. In those rare cases where you have a problem bear at a distance, it's nice to have more than the 20 - 30 feet or so sprays offer. However it's worth noting most successful bear defenses with guns actually happen within pepper spray ranges - there's a lot of evidence to suggest the noise and fire of the gun does as much or more than the bullet to cause the bear to break off the attack.

Fatality - a bear that will attack you would attack the next guy. Nice to just solve the problem. A man-killer bear is a rare thing, removing it from the gene-pool helps keep it more rare. And lets face it - a bear with a gaping sucking wound and a smashed shoulder is much less likely to decide to pick on you again anytime soon.

Cons include -

Must be PROFICIENT, and have practiced extensively with your gun to be able to effectively use it in a self defense situation like that.

Slower to deploy than pepper spray (rifles only, if you're allowed to carry a pistol the pistol is just as fast.)

Can't use it when the bear is already on someone except to scare the bear off with noise, which may or may not work.

Not legal in all parks etc.

Pro's of sprays include -

Fast to deploy. You don't even need to take it out of it's holder to use it effectively, especially if you carry it in a 'baldric' holster.

Cheap. Easy to equip everyone there with one.

Easier to use and train people with (BUT STILL REQUIRES SOME TRAINING OR AT LEAST SOME INSTRUCTION!)

At least as effective as guns at stopping an attack (but doesn't prevent being attacked again).

Can be carried everywhere, except some aircraft.

Can be used on an animal even if it's on top of someone else.

Cons include -

Non lethal - bear may re-attack.

Short range.

You will likely get some in your eyes if you use it. Contrary to some theories, it will NOT be enough to disable or seriously impede you, but it WILL sting and be unplesant.

Impossible to 'test' a canister before you need it. Once fired, even one burst, the cans tend to lose pressure over time so if you test fire one today, you can't trust it next week. That means you have to hope you've got a properly charged bottle with you when the bear attacks.

 

[Calum]

Funny that a few days ago I came across some saved files (pics and movies) I have on CD that shows some Northern Rangers doing Bear defence training with their Enfields.

And a pic of Bear spray vs distance etc.

The original poster might have been the member here called Rifle Chair, but I'm not sure. I would need his (or whoever's) permission to post anything.

 

[H4831]

Best gun for bear defence is the gun you can get your hands on, in the extremely rare event that a bear may attack you.

 

[Boomer]

Best gun for bear defence is the gun you can get your hands on, in the extremely rare event that a bear may attack you.

The question begs to be asked, rare for who? The individual who never gets off a city sidewalk is less likely to be the victim of the bear attack than is the tree planter, the tree planter is less likely to be attacked than is the Fisheries ands Oceans guys who are mandated to walk up salmon streams, and the F&O guys are less likely to be attacked than those who purposely seek confrontations with bears. So yes, if you are an occasional visitor to bear habitat, if you remain alert, and follow the standard advise as it pertains to food management in bear country, and to your behavior when you see a bear, you are unlikely to be attacked. Bears are individualistic, and a bear can be as grouchy or as easy going as anyone else. But, show me a 600 pound bear and I'll show you a bear that is capable and willing to kill you given the right circumstances. Does this mean you need to live in fear during the time you spend in bear country, of course not. But if it's prudent to put on a warm coat on a cold day, it is also prudent to carry a gun in bear country.

Those of us who grew up in the 50's and 60's were taught that black bears are not dangerous, we would put the run on them by slapping them with a canoe paddle. That point of view lead to many people not having any respect for them, and not respecting a wild animal will lead to problems. Turns out that the theory about black bears not being dangerous wasn't necessarily accurate as blackies are responsible for the majority of predatory bear attacks on people. The bush has changed in the last 50 years too. Bears that seldom saw people, have become used to our presence and in some cases habituated to us as a food source. If a bear hits a cabin once and is rewarded, it will hit every cabin it comes across for the rest of it's life. The bigger the bear, the easier it is for it to break in. If you are in the cabin when it breaks in, you have a problem. The bears here can go right through a plywood wall if there is enough incentive on the other side. Often they'll come in through a door or a window and go out through the wall anyway. I won't even talk about tents.

I like bears. I like the exhilaration I get from being in close proximity to them. I spend a fair bit of time around them when I can. Every bear has the potential to be a dangerous bear. Just because a bear is good natured one day doesn't mean he will be the next. Just because a bear is dangerous towards people one day doesn't mean he will be the next. Tell you what though, if you've had trouble with a dangerous bear one day, and spot that same bear close by the next, I bet you won't be as relaxed as you were the day before.

 

[jethunter]

Hey guys,

I'm looking for some advice on what kind of rifle to buy this spring. It has to be a non-restricted semi that would be capable of taking down a black bear in a reasonable amount of shots (2 if not 1 ideally). No shotguns, but accuracy isn't a big deal; minute of DEER within 100 yards.

Thanks guys, lookng forward to hearing your opinions.

No disrespect intended, but there's a lot more "bear defense rifles" (and "bear defense threads") than there are bears, is my honest opinion.

You have one part right. Contrary to popular belief, a rifle is a much better bear gun than a shotgun. Slugs don't penetrate worth crap. For a true bear defense gun it would be hard to beat a 45-70, but black bear are not dangerous game, nor are they known to continue to press an attack when they are hit. A 30-30 is more than enough to put a blackie down or discourage him mightily.

My advice is to get something that is easy to carry and at least 30 caliber. After that it doesn't matter a great deal. The M14 suggested by another poster would certainly be a good choice, except that it is so heavy to carry that you will probably not have it handy when you need it, if that remote possibility arises.

 

[MaxKW]

I disagree, many professionalls as well as ppl that spend lots of time in the bush believe that black bear are more dangerous than other bears despite there size because they are unpredictable and will not back down until all signs off life are gone and they've played with your limp body for a while. Almost every year there is at least 1-2 incidents in my area alone, a dr and her husband where attacked while jogging, as well as young man (MNR worker IIRC) was dragged out of his tent during the night.

As for ease of killing them and them giving up an attack, from a treestand when the bear doesn't know your there, any bullet that makes it to the vitals will put him down and he'll run away in a hurry, but in a attack with the bears adrenaline pumping i'd want to put him down quick before he realizes you had something to do with inflicting that pain and he knocks your head off.

 

[Jeff/1911]

...your post comes in at a close second to mine as the most useless in this thread. I thought there was some good suggestions dotted with a bit of humour that bear defense threads usually generate. Sorry we offended your supreme code of ethics and your untarnished "hunter" image. Thanks for comin' out though and please work extra hard to restore my image with all the offended.

Cheers,
Mad Mikey.

Sun and Steel,

I thought your response was great!

 

[Jeff/1911]

I've been thinking about this myself, particularly in light of the fact that I'll be "guarding" a bunch of us going rafting in some wild Alberta wilderness in a couple months. I have it narrowed down to my 22" Marlin .444 lever, or my M14...I like the idea that the M14 is a semi auto and holds LOTS of rounds.

This is a rifle that will ostensibly remain cased while rafting, and will be put ready when camp is estabished.

Jeff.

 

[Foxer]

I disagree, many professionalls as well as ppl that spend lots of time in the bush believe that black bear are more dangerous than other bears despite there size because they are unpredictable and will not back down until all signs off life are gone and they've played with your limp body for a while

A black bear attack is more serious because it's predatory. I think that's what you meant. In other words, while an angry griz may well be content to beat the snot out of you and leave you pretty broken up but alive, a black bear wants to eat you.

Not all black bear attacks are predatory and some griz attacks are, but in general black bears attack because they're hungry.

an average Black bear is much less likely to attack than a griz. However, in bc for example there's about 12,000 grizzes and about 200,000 black bears. So you'll have a lot more black bear encounters than grizzes. Even if only 1 in 1000 black bears are a problem, that's still 200 out there who you don't want to run into and who knows where they are.

Another thing to consider is the 'threat' of black bears changes a LOT with the conditions. Mature male black bears are the LEAST likely to be a problem. The more dangerous ones are young bears or old females, and that changes with bear density and food supply.

Here's how that works - young bears are beaten and preyed upon by older bears. They are often driven out of the 'best' areas that an older bear has claimed for itself and are forced to look for other areas. They are too young to know what a threat humans are to them. And they are naturally more agressive to anyone they think they can "take".

When food is plentiful for a year or two - females have more cubs and have them at younger ages. If that is followed by a period of less food (berry crop fails, etc) in an area where the population is fairly dense, the young ones can become more desperate, tend to be seperated from 'mom' a little earlier in many cases, and are more likely to be a threat.

So if you're in an area with high populations of black bears, and there's been a few good breeding seasons, and it's a particularly dry year or there's a lack of food that year, the chances of having a bear be a little more pushy than other years goes up.

Consider that woman killed last year out this way on her bike. Biking down a trail there's never been problems on, a very young black bear chased her down and killed her. In that same general area that year another guy got attacked by a young small bear and bit on the ass but his dog managed to drive the bear off. Neither had been 'problem' areas in the past per se.

Anyway - it IS important to not be paranoid. Bears for the most part are not interested in humans. But it's also wise to remember there's a lot of factors that affect bear behavior, and having SOME basic defense tool is a good idea.

 

[Foxer]

I have it narrowed down to my 22" Marlin .444 lever, or my M14.

I like the idea that the M14 is a semi auto and holds LOTS of rounds.

You aren't going to get lots of shots if a bear attacks. You're going to get a couple, and the job better be finished by then. The first shot is the important one. Don't take volume of fire over other considerations, pick a gun that's the most reliable, that you have lots of experience with, thats easy to pack with you, etc. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with an m-14, but the bigger calibre 444 is probably a better choice - IF you can shoot the lever fast and accurately personally.

 

[willy11]

Yay, another bear defense thead.


I'm drunk.


Your welcome.

If a person is not interested in a thread, then don't read it. Add nothing if you can't add anything good.

 

[manbearpig]

i dont see why its such a big deal to some people that others concern themselves with 'bear defense'.
IMO the absolute worst thing that can come of these threads is that someone lugs an extra 8lbs along on their hike that they dont use.

personally, i see 'bear defense' as not just defense from bears but general security/preparedness. if i go hiking/camping up in the middle of nowhere i like the idea of having a gun with me, not just for the unlikely scenario (in Ontario) that ill be attacked by an animal, but also defense from 2 legged predators, a survival/signaling tool if i get lost, etc. cant really go wrong with packing a 12ga. and a couple types of ammo + a couple 12ga. signal flares when you are camping or hiking in the remote wilderness, regardless of the likelihood of actually being attacked by a bear. id rather carry a shotgun with me on 100 hikes/camping trips and not use it than be in one situation where it is needed and not have one.

 

[Jeff/1911]

You aren't going to get lots of shots if a bear attacks. You're going to get a couple, and the job better be finished by then. The first shot is the important one. Don't take volume of fire over other considerations, pick a gun that's the most reliable, that you have lots of experience with, thats easy to pack with you, etc. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with an m-14, but the bigger calibre 444 is probably a better choice - IF you can shoot the lever fast and accurately personally.

Foxer,

I agree...that makes a lot of sense. I guess the idea of a second or third quickly shot placed shot, is what I was thinking...mainly due to the recoil taming effect of the semiauto M14.

Jeff.

 

[H4831]

Looks like I stirred the pot with my, "extremely rare chance of being attacked." These posts are too short to give many details, but I have been associated with bears for over sixty years. What Boomer said about the bears changing attitude over the last fifty years is certainly correct. In my book I make the following statement, concerning the time up to about the 1950s. "All the old timers in the bush looked on black bears as presenting about the same danger to them as would a Jersey cow." In the book I explain much of what Boomer has stated. However Boomer, I have walked beyond the sidewalk!
The first black bears to become dangerous were the bears in parks. Now, with the protection given bears, many of them look on people as food suppliers, and the more they are around people and where people live, the more dangerous they become.
Also, I ALWAYS carry a suitable rifle when I am in the bush. Hell, I've been chased up a tree by an over-###ed bull moose in rutting time! However, when well away from habitation, I still think the chance of a black bear attacking is very rare. And, in all my life and all the hunters, trappers and people living in the backwoods that I have known and all the stories they tell, I have never heard of a black bear trying to attack after being wounded, by a bullet or arrow. I have hit black bears with both a rifle and arrow that did not take them off their feet. In every case they just tried to get away.
In north central BC I once belonged to a very active archery group. Bears were varmits at that time, with no protection, so we could hunt them anytime. One season we killed eleven bears. An arrow never stops a bear quickly, but not one had the slightest inclination to attack after being hit. And no, we never used a tree stand.
Bears have very poor eyesight, thus they often don't see you. A bear when hit and not knocked down will often make a head long run. They don't know where you are, just that they have been hit. So, it is not uncommon for them to make a run, more or less toward the shooter. But this doesn't mean they are attacking. I was once standing on a big brush pile in a logging area when I shot a bear with a rifle, but missed a vital spot. He ran directly toward me, and actually went into the brush pile I was on. But he was not attacking. I got down and it it took some looking to find and finish him, well hid in the brush below where I was.
I once watched a film hunters had made of a grizzly hunt. They told everyone they had been attacked by a wounded grizzly. In the film, the bear didn't know anyone was around, when suddenly it got hit. It made the typical straight run, in the direction it was pointed, and the fellow said see, it's charging us. But it was plain it was not charging, just getting out of there in a direction that was about 25 degrees to the side of the hunters, and would have gone by the hunters, if they hadn't killed him.
A homesteader I knew lived in the boondocks for twenty-five years. He said every fall he shot a bear cub for the fat. He said never once did he have to kill the mother bear. He said, "Oh sure, they huff and they puff and they clash their teeth, but I just told them, get out of here, and I never had to shoot any of them."
Having said all that, I admit bears familiar with people and cabins, can be very dangerous. I also have to say that my family has given me hell for not taking bears serious enough! My wife has even stated that she won't let me go on anymore grizzly hunts all by myself. Heaven forbid, what will I do now?

 

[roddy027]

easy

I was followed across a road by a bruin in Alaska...I didn't see or hear her...she didn't charge...she didn't grunt...this was observed by my brother that couldn't make a sound...when I realized my situation, it was over...best bear defense?...............be the hunter, bear banger, knife, 375 H+H...it's their territory...be sober...

 

[Applefarmer]

H&K SL7 if you can find one.

 

[Foxer]

I have never heard of a black bear trying to attack after being wounded, by a bullet or arrow.

I have - actually a well respected member of this board had it happen to him just a few years ago. quite the story actually. But - admittedly that's the only time i've heard of it happening.

 

[icehunter121]

I have - actually a well respected member of this board had it happen to him just a few years ago. quite the story actually. But - admittedly that's the only time i've heard of it happening.

I had it happen to me...I spotted a bear on a cutline about 600 yards away feeding on a hill side. I was in camo and snuck along the bush edge till I was about 300 yards away from it. The bear headed into the bush on the left hand side as i was watching it so i rolled out on the line found a log and placed my crosshairs between two trees hoping that she was going through that spot. She did...

I let go a 180 grain partition from a 300 win mag as soon as i seen the front shoulder hit the scope. I heard the whump of the bullet hit and waited for my buddy to quad up to me and we went up to where i thought she was.He said he heard the slug hit home to so we thought that she would be laying there..she wasnt.

We used the quad as a mark and went about 30 feet into the bush searching in circles. All of a sudden i heard a snarl and my buddy yelled..Dennis in front.

The bear came up out of some tall grass,ears back and teeth bared and was coming at me. She was maybe 25 feet or so,i stepped/ducked,behind a poplar that was maybe 10 inches around and with one hand reached around with the rifle and let another shot go at this black hairball that was intent on getting me. I didnt have time to aim,it was just a hail mary shot and hope for the best.

My buddie in the mean time had enuff fore sight to get his rifle up and get the bear in his scope just as it dropped.

the second slug hit where I hoped it would,in the vitals. We waited about 5 minutes before moving with both of us with our cross hairs planted on the spot she was in.

When all was said and done she was only 10 feet from me.The first shot was in the lungs,second shot hit between both shoulders,travelled horizontally,took out the rest of the lungs and heart before exiting the r.h. quarter...

Thank God for partitions.....