What is with SF types and 1911's?

Gunslinger said:
In the end a pistol's task is quite simple, putting a shot at close quarters into the target reliably and effectively. While there are quite a few designs that do this, each one with it's own niche defined by it's "improvement" over the others, non can really be considered a quantum leap over the 1911.
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Agreed

Gunslinger said:
Considering any of them as the sum of their parts, non of them compares better than the 1911 in terms of ergonomics, reliability, accuracy, payload, portability, customization, durability, availability, accessories.
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Arguable

Gunslinger said:
There's not much more a pistol can be expected to do that the 1911 doesn't already do so well. Plus it just feels right in the hand and confidence is a huge plus when facing a threat.
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I think that sums it up fairly well...A lack of a huge improvement in other designs combined with some nostalgia.

Mind you any other relevant info would be appreciated.

American designed firearms to tend to have some sort of intangible quality to them. Thinking of the m14, garand, 1911, m-16, Thompson, Rem 870. There is something about them..Maybe it is just that we are bombarded with images of them, I dunno.
 
bkjedi said:
Traditionally all U.S. SOF groups have used 1911s, notably the Army Special Forces (Green Berets) and Delta, Marine Expeditionary Units and Force Reconaissance, and Air Force Pararescuemen and Combat Controllers. The notable exception are the Navy SEAL Teams, who have been 1911-less for at least the last few decades. Standard issue has been Sig Sauer P226 Navy 9mm, S&W 686 .357 Magnum revolver, and now H&K Mod. 0 SOCOM (Mark 23 for civillians) in .45 ACP. The 1911 was not found to be corrosion-resistant enough for the underwater types.

You can also add the FBI SWAT Hostage Rescue Team, the official and legal domestic counter-terrorist unit in the U.S., as long as Posse Comitatus is in effect, who carry the deluxe Springfield Armory TRP Pro contract model.

Recently, Para-Ordnance began manufacturing a top-end double-stack 1911 for SOF units in Afghanistan. Not sure if it was designed for the Yanks, or if the Dwyer Hill boys are finally trading in their 9mm Sigs as well.

As for history, the Thompson/LaGarde study of handgun ammunition effectiveness in 1907 resulted in all U.S. troops being issued a .45 sidearm. Over the decades and through the conflicts of the 20th century, the "legendary manstopper" and "one-shot, one-kill" mystique of the .45 continued to grow. Today, the natural pointability, inherent accuracy, slim grip, short light trigger, and recoil-reducing heavy steel construction, continue to make 1911 in .45 the choice for special operators who actually use their pistols as offensive weapons, and can't afford to rely on multiple well-placed shots to put their enemy down.
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actually , if you go back far enough, the issue weapon for seals /udt was the 39 smith, and then the 59 smith- but this is back about the same time as the stoner - it also lists the smith model 10 -
 
SMITH45 said:
Why 1911

For most: ergonomics, user friendly, proven base, almost 100 years olds and produce by more firearms manufacturer then ever

.45ACP power, not perfect, but a real good stopper!!

Whay else to say, If they can afford it, got it?
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Would you buy a car designed 100 years ago?
 
t-star said:
actually , if you go back far enough, the issue weapon for seals /udt was the 39 smith, and then the 59 smith- but this is back about the same time as the stoner - it also lists the smith model 10 -
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I was referring to modern times, as the frogmen are the only ones who don't currently favour a 1911. All the sidearms I mentioned are currently issued as standard kit to SEAL teams/DEVGRU. They have a choice of several different pistols and even a revolver, making them unique in the U.S. spec ops community.
 
Stevo said:
Would you buy a car designed 100 years ago?
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A: yes, because it will be around alot longer than the Pontiac in your driveway

B: yes, because you can probably still get parts for it, unlike the Pontiac in your driveway

c: I think a 100 year old car and/or a horse are far more reliable than a newer car...How come the states bans NORINCO but their cars are assembled with Chinese parts?

p.s. I could be wrong, but doesn't plastic dry out over time? go fishing with some 10 year old line, then ask yourself how well your polymer pistol will shoot in 100 years.
 
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Okay, off the top. Not the Geneva Convention, that deals with persons not projectiles. The bullets are covered under the Hague Convention D. III. As for the guys who use M1911s right now the answer is very vague. The people who are using the 1911s are the people who are using the 1911s. The ones who admit to having them (in varying incarnations) include 1 CAG Detachment Delta, USMC MEU(SOC), The Green Berets and rumour has it that JTF2 has a few floating around from Para after evaluations (that last one is pretty much un-confirmable by me). The rest of SOCOM are currently using SIG product and the Mk 23 Mod 0.

As to why, the 1911 is a very well fitting, accurate and reliable handgun (when you don't screw with it). I happen to like my 1911 very much and have had only one issue with it, it does'nt like Kimber 10rd mags.
 
Exactly. There are far better fighting pistols than the 1911 on the market today.
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Such as??

I beleive there may be a pistol better at some things than a good 1911 but in the hands of a person trained to shoot at people not paper the 1911 is still an excellent design.


JMHO

ANdy
 
ampegor said:
Such as??

I beleive there may be a pistol better at some things than a good 1911 but in the hands of a person trained to shoot at people not paper the 1911 is still an excellent design.


JMHO

ANdy
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Oh let's see.......Sig, Glock, HK.......

The 1911 is a fine pistol, when it works. It's an old-school design that requires good mags, careful fitting, tuning, and maintenance to function reliably.

If I've seen 100 pistol malfunctions on the range, 90 have been with 1911s. And that's on the range, where no one is depending on them for anything more than a game or plinking.

I'm not saying all 1911's are bad, they're just a dated design. If you spend the big bucks, or have a good gunsmith you can get a reliable, dependable 1911. You don't need to have either to get a modern pistol like the Sig 226 to function reliably.
 
Stevo said:
Oh let's see.......Sig, Glock, HK.......

The 1911 is a fine pistol, when it works. It's an old-school design that requires good mags, careful fitting, tuning, and maintenance to function reliably.

If I've seen 100 pistol malfunctions on the range, 90 have been with 1911s. And that's on the range, where no one is depending on them for anything more than a game or plinking.

I'm not saying all 1911's are bad, they're just a dated design. If you spend the big bucks, or have a good gunsmith you can get a reliable, dependable 1911. You don't need to have either to get a modern pistol like the Sig 226 to function reliably.
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I've often found that people "tuning" their 1911 IS the cause of the failure, most 1911's I've seen come out of a box would function just fine if they were left alone. The idea that a 1911 needs modification comes directly from gun magazines, and has become accepted as gospel.
 
All one has to do is own a good 1911 to know the answer. Nothing feels as good in my hand as a 1911 and it becomes very easy to shoot after developing the rote skills needed to safely use it. Lastly, the 45acp is a gentle giant that gets the job done. Regards, Richard:)

My Dan Wesson CBOB:
CBOB.jpg
 
The army was using worn out 1911s in combat forever. No complaints there

I have seen Glocks, Sigs, Berettas, CZs, and Rugers jam too. All mechanical items can break or fail. If you shoot enough you will see everything malfunction or break. If you haven't then you don't shoot enough. ;)

1911s are not more unreliable than anything else. In fact they are very reliable guns. I have a Springfield that will function with just about anything Unless I screw up one of my reloads.

If you leave off the gadgets and tight-chambered match barrels and use whatever ammunition it most favors (usually hardball), They are very reliable.
The more I've learned about the 1911, the less I like to tinker with it. I do feel there are a few things (none of which is extremely complicated or expensive) that can be done to make the 1911 a better gun, but in general I think you're better off leaving the piece alone.
Many good points were made, So I will not bother to reverb some of them.
 
Nice pistol, Richard. That's the kind of quality 1911 I'm talking about.:)

Ian,
I've heard folks from the US say they think the Dremel should be a Class III NFA item from all the "improvements" and home "gunsmithing" they're involved in.
 
Stevo said:
Would you buy a car designed 100 years ago?
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This analogy is flawed in so many ways....Yes most cars still run on 4 wheels, are powered by internal combustion engines, and yes most cars still have seats for the occupants and a steering wheel for the driver.

A modernized 1911 runs just as well as any other design out there.
 
ian_in_vic said:
I've often found that people "tuning" their 1911 IS the cause of the failure, most 1911's I've seen come out of a box would function just fine if they were left alone. The idea that a 1911 needs modification comes directly from gun magazines, and has become accepted as gospel.
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+1

Most malfunctions I have seen on the range are from "kitchen table gunsmiths" who have varying levels of skill (or lack there of). There are many books and websites that offer tips and tricks that suck inexperienced people into trying things that may be above their level.
 
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