Bullet Penetration Question
- Thread starter Demonical
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Sure it expands. They also over expand when driven hard, shed petals when driven hard enough and occasionally fail to expand together. An expanded TSX has more than a superficial resemblance to a solid wadcutter with some tinsel hanging off the front. I'd have to add it up, but I've probably killed about 3 dozen animals with them now, but I don't think they are the perfect bullet. The arrow reference is inserted, as an example of how a thin membrane can show the attitute of a flying object at a place in time. If it shows a hole, the arrow was flying straight. If it shows a tear it wasn't. The broad-head doesn't have a damn thing to do with it.The hide of an animal can act like this paper test in some cases, if the bullet was going sideways it could show it. If the exit is a hole the size your wrist with steam rolling out of it, then not much is going to be learned.
Does it scare you to have your entire belief system questioned?
LOL......Most definitely not. Truthfully, I never saw anyone challenge my beliefs. Seems like I scared a few people by challenging theirs though. It seems those faced with new ideas are the ones that are scared!
Not me, I'm fearless.
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- The Conservative part of Ontario
Does it make any difference if the bullet was tumbling or not, as long as the animal drops quickly?
I think tumbling, if it occurs limits penetration. Some years back a good friend of mine shot a small buck through the ribs with a 105 grain Nosler partition bullet from a 243 Winchester. The distance was less than fifty yards, closer in fact to fifty feet. The buck ran about 75 yards, and when recovered, the bullet had not exited.
Why? The bullet showed a classic mushroom, and no indication of it being off center. On examination it was clear that it had nicked a rib on the way in. It exited between two ribs, and was caught by the hide on the off side.
about 85% weight retention according to the shooter.
It must have tumbled right?
I'd ask the deer, but he was dead.
I think tumbling, if it occurs limits penetration. Some years back a good friend of mine shot a small buck through the ribs with a 105 grain Nosler partition bullet from a 243 Winchester. The distance was less than fifty yards, closer in fact to fifty feet. The buck ran about 75 yards, and when recovered, the bullet had not exited.
Why? The bullet showed a classic mushroom, and no indication of it being off center. On examination it was clear that it had nicked a rib on the way in. It exited between two ribs, and was caught by the hide on the off side.
about 85% weight retention according to the shooter.
It must have tumbled right?
I'd ask the deer, but he was dead.
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- The Conservative part of Ontario
Republic of Alberta
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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There is also the parachute effect to consider, the fat mushroom being held up in the last few inches of penetration and the bullet swapping ends.
One bullet famous for being found backwards are the thick jacketed nosler ballistic tips which can loose all their lead and become heavier in the rear. I have seen a couple pictures so far with only the base of the bullet sticking out of hide with the mushroomed portion still inside. The 338 200g Ballistic tips I have shot and found were not ALWAYS facing forwards but almost always, of course I was looking for it due to the bullets reputation. There are clearly different factors involved in the likely hood of a bullet tumbling.
One bullet famous for being found backwards are the thick jacketed nosler ballistic tips which can loose all their lead and become heavier in the rear. I have seen a couple pictures so far with only the base of the bullet sticking out of hide with the mushroomed portion still inside. The 338 200g Ballistic tips I have shot and found were not ALWAYS facing forwards but almost always, of course I was looking for it due to the bullets reputation. There are clearly different factors involved in the likely hood of a bullet tumbling.
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John Y Cannuck said:
Well I pretty much posted what I saw with 2 different calibers and then the boys took the subject off on a tangent.
I think wood as a test medium is radically different than any game animal, blood, tissue, bone etc, which the argument has steered towards, but that's okay. There were a lot of excellent points made by various armchair experts.
I still intend to take my .416RM and my .458 Lott out and try them out on those same size trees. My .416RM is loaded with 400gr Hornady RN IL's and the Lott has 500gr Hornady RN IB's. The muzzle velocity of the .416 is about 2450 fps and the Lott is about 2250. I am quite sure that both will get through as those bullets are right at the top of the sectional density lists.
And for the unscientific test that I am doing, I think sectional density is the most important factor, as long as velocity is adequate.
I believe that wood limits expansion quite a bit.
Consider the .405 versus the 220gr 8mm. Both bullets muzzle velocities were nearly identical, the .405 weighed 80grs more, yet it failed to penetrate. I'm pretty sure the sectional density advantage of the 8mm is the reason.
I wonder if a .243, in whatever it's highest bullet weight is, could get through?
Wood is a piss poor medium for testing bullets..It tends to hold bullets together.
But wood logs are fun to shoot, and easy too. It's probably okay to shoot one wiht a known performer and see how the other bullet does, too. Just like dry or wet newsprint.
In most cases, mediums dont' tell us more than what a bullet does in relation to another, known quantity.
But wood logs are fun to shoot, and easy too. It's probably okay to shoot one wiht a known performer and see how the other bullet does, too. Just like dry or wet newsprint.
In most cases, mediums dont' tell us more than what a bullet does in relation to another, known quantity.
Gatehouse I totally agree. I think that is why the most important criteria for blasting through wood is sectional density combined with appropriate velocity. It's a pretty poor test really.
After reading all the stuff other guys were talking about I am mulling the idea of building a box to hold newspaper to conduct penetration/expansion tests.
I think a box made of 3/4" plywood, sized to allow newspapers to be stacked in it and then soaked would work.
Just get yourself some PermaGel. No mess...no fuss and about as good a medium as you'll get without breaking the bank. That and it's reuseable. To get something better, a deer farm might be your next best bet...lol
If that's the product I'm thinking of it can't handle standard hunting calibres...let alone magnum catridges. Is there another one? The one I've seen was designed primarily for handguns.
I got mine right from PermaGel.
Google is your friend!
Okay....when I first saw the product they never had the extenders for it and high power rifle bullets would pass right through. It looks like basically the same product as PermaGel.....cool! It's amazing how much a person can learn about bullets by shooting them into test mediums. More than just bullet performance, it shows how outdated many of our theories are about bullet performance are, including what a crutch SD has become for some.
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Republic of Alberta
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- ,location, location
I know from past discussions that everybody that has posted on this thread understands that SD is only relevant when comparing bullets of the same construction.
I was going to order up that test tube thingie but decided that I would end up becoming obsessed with it, loose out on valuable hunting/fishing time only to find out what I already know about my favorite bullets. Ones that I have tested before and used successfully on game.
I was going to order up that test tube thingie but decided that I would end up becoming obsessed with it, loose out on valuable hunting/fishing time only to find out what I already know about my favorite bullets. Ones that I have tested before and used successfully on game.
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