Bullet Penetration Question

[sheephunter]

Boomer, while in a perfect world I agree that choosing a bullet for the conditions is a great concept, in the real world it's rarely pratical, or at least out here in the west. On any given day, I may have bear, elk, moose, sheep and deer tags in my pocket and I could be shooting anywhere from 50 to 350+ yards. Carrying two rifles is not an option and I've yet to find two bullets that shoot identically out of my rifle so I'm forced to use one bullet that will do the job under the widest variety of conditions you could imagine. I think most hunters are faced with this dilemma and that's why we ask so much of our bullets. While designed to perform optimally at one velocity, we ask them to perform through an extremely wide velocitity range. I'm not one for taking risky shots so some of the parameters you outlined don't apply to me but I know I ask a lot of one bulet and to expect it to perform perfectly each time is ludacrous. All that I can hope is it performs adequately!

 

[Gatehouse]

]

LOL! I do get a kick out of people who worry about bears influence what guns and bullets they pack. A 380 grain bullet for north America!!! Holy Toledo!Good thing I never knew about how much bullet it took to kill bear before I shot my grizzlies. All three expired from a single 165 grain bullet each from a 308 win . So did my B&C blackie.

Probably has something to do with Boomer being the hired gun to provide protection from polar bears for various groups...Hunting grizzlies and black bears is different from stopping irate big bears.

 

[Gatehouse]

Boomer, while in a perfect world I agree that choosing a bullet for the conditions is a great concept, in the real world it's rarely pratical, or at least out here in the west. On any given day, I may have bear, elk, moose, sheep and deer tags in my pocket and I could be shooting anywhere from 50 to 350+ yards. !

This is the reason I've gone pretty much over to the TSX bullets.

That and I like to be able to take any shot angle presented if I choose, and the TSX is one of those bullets that if you can put the bullet on line with the vitals, it will get there, within reason. Yes, even on Texas heart shots...

The only animal I ever shot with an X bullet that didn't die within a couple of steps was a black bear, with an older Barnes X bullet, which I believe never expanded. Usually they are dead right there, or, leave a very short blood trail like this

I easily get different bullets to shoot to the same spot which is what I do for practice ammo- Use cheap bullets that shoot close to POA as the TSX bullets. I suppose I could carry some of these for deer, and then load the TSX if I see a moose...but why bother, when the TSX is accurate, opens fast, penetrates well, opens up shot angle potential and kills animals big and small quickly

 

[sheephunter]

Gatehouse....close to POI is definitely not good enough when doing some serious long-range shooting. In fact, it's not good enough for any hunting. While practicing on paper is one thing, using two dfferent bullets that have two different POI in a hunting situation borders on irresponsible unless you are talking about some extremely close range encounters like when used as back up for dangerous game and such.

 

[Boomer]

LOL! I do get a kick out of people who worry about bears influence what guns and bullets they pack. A 380 grain bullet for north America!!! Holy Toledo! Good thing I never knew about how much bullet it took to kill bear before I shot my grizzlies. All three expired from a single 165 grain bullet each from a 308 win . So did my B&C blackie.
I did my Barnes bullet thing in the 80's. Great bullets, but not many guns would shoot them well back then. The TSX has improved that. I was lucky and a 338WM loved them and I killed a lot of moose, bear, elk, deer and caribou with them. I eventually got tired of trailing animals, every single one died but still had to be tracked. I went back to some of my favorites and then got into the bonded bullets. Much more expansion and energy transfer with an expanding bullet. That energy transfer is what puree's things in the rib cage and puts an animal down quickly from massive blood loss. I've heard the talk about needing the depleted uranium tungsten coated slug for the off angle Texas heart shot through a tree. I don't buy it. Caiber and bullet construction can't make up for poor shooting choices. Bullet placement is everything, I shoot for shoulder and bust them on the spot. I've taken every angle you can conceive of other than the Texas heart shot and never lost a critter. Just as a personal note I find the THS distasteful and doing something that risky just because you can falls outside my personal ethics.

Believe it or not bears are a reality in some places in the country. I hope you have the opportunity to experience an unexpected close range dangerous bear encounter some day, many of us who post on here have had, and will continue to have these truly wonderful encounters. I wonder what you'd have done if your grizzly had managed to get into a stand of willows after you shot him. Lots of guys just sit pack and let the guide deal with it, and if you carry a mouse gun you had better. I'll admit many who deal with big bears on a regular basis might find the 380 a little light and would prefer a 45 caliber slug that weighs in excess of an ounce, but I find that the little .375 is a good all around rifle because of the great bullets available for it.

He is a couple of pictures of a bear on it's third day of feeding on a caribou carcass. A hunter had shot the caribou, and the bear contested ownership.

While often considered an animal of the sea ice and tundra, a polar bear can lay traps for the unwary.

In the fall and early winter close calls are not that uncommon

But they are stressful

Incursions on the sea ice can be dangerous

Protecting a photographer near a whale carcass

You can get too close

And then he'll come

I've got hundreds of pictures taken over the last 20 years documenting bear encounters.

Edited to add . . .
Trying to sound high minded by refusing a going away shot is pretty dumb isn't it? If that's the shot I'm offered on a wounded animal I'll take it, and be glad to have it.

 

[Gatehouse]

Gatehouse....close to POI is definitely not good enough when doing some serious long-range shooting. In fact, it's not good enough for any hunting. While practicing on paper is one thing, using two dfferent bullets that have two different POI in a hunting situation borders on irresponsible unless you are talking about some extremely close range encounters like when used as back up for dangerous game and such.

Close to POA to me is not 3" to the left, it's "right next to" or "right amongst" the TSX group. It's not that hard to tailor some loads to do that, even out to 500 yards. In fact, I have no problem busting a water filled milk jug at 450 yards, using Hornady practice ammo, while my rifle is sighted in with TSX bullets. I'd guess that the majority of big game animals have vitals no bigger than a milk jug!


Regardless, you may want to read my post again:

I suppose I could carry some of these for deer, and then load the TSX if I see a moose...but why bother, when the TSX is accurate, opens fast, penetrates well, opens up shot angle potential and kills animals big and small quickly

Hence, I don't do it. No point.

 

[Boomer]

Boomer, while in a perfect world I agree that choosing a bullet for the conditions is a great concept, in the real world it's rarely pratical, or at least out here in the west. On any given day, I may have bear, elk, moose, sheep and deer tags in my pocket and I could be shooting anywhere from 50 to 350+ yards. Carrying two rifles is not an option and I've yet to find two bullets that shoot identically out of my rifle so I'm forced to use one bullet that will do the job under the widest variety of conditions you could imagine. I think most hunters are faced with this dilemma and that's why we ask so much of our bullets. While designed to perform optimally at one velocity, we ask them to perform through an extremely wide velocitity range. I'm not one for taking risky shots so some of the parameters you outlined don't apply to me but I know I ask a lot of one bulet and to expect it to perform perfectly each time is ludacrous. All that I can hope is it performs adequately!

I often carry a few small game rounds as well as both the long range and short range ammo. The small game load prints to POA at 25 yards which is perfect around here. The BT's print 3" high at 100 while the 380's print POA. That sounds pretty real world practical to me and means I don't have to rely on adequate.

 

[sheephunter]

I often carry a few small game rounds as well as both the long range and short range ammo. The small game load prints to POA at 25 yards which is perfect around here. The BT's print 3" high at 100 while the 380's print POA. That sounds pretty real world practical to me and means I don't have to rely on adequate.

You have a lot more luck than me Boomer. I can rarely get two different bullet types to impact on the same vertical line let alone rely on a precise POI at differnt ranges with different weights and styles of bullets. I guess if it works for you there's no arguing with success but for me, the real world still dictates one bullet and one POI.

 

[Gatehouse]

I often carry a few small game rounds as well as both the long range and short range ammo. The small game load prints to POA at 25 yards which is perfect around here.

OOps! I shoudl have mentioned that I do that too....Cast subsonic 30-30 ammo, reduced loads for larger centerfires. I put those in some nickel plated cases, so they don't get mixed up.

 

[Gatehouse]

I just thought of something, so went and found the pics:

Hornady 375 Ruger 270gr factory ammo

375 Ruger Handload, 260gr Accubond

I didn't even try to get these to shoot to similar impacts, but as you can see by the photos, if you laid the targets on top of each other, they are pretty darn close.

 

[johnson]

All.

 

[sheephunter]

Not saying it can't happen Gatehouse and if there's a rifle it's likely to happen in, it's a .375 shooting heavy bullets of similar weight but in smaller calibres with lighter bullets, having POI two or three inches horizontally apart is not uncommon....in fact it's quite common. There is no way I'd ever suggest to anyone that they switch back and forth between bullets depending on the distance or species without first verifying POI at the range. As I say it can work but the chance of disaster is far greater than success.

 

[Omega]

Believe it or not bears are a reality in some places in the country. I hope you have the opportunity to experience an unexpected close range dangerous bear encounter some day, many of us who post on here have had, and will continue to have these truly wonderful encounters.

Oh, for gosh sakes get over yourself already! Who HASN"T been charged by a bear? My second grizzly was a self defence bear and when he died I ended up with his blood and slobber on me, that little 2 step started in the willows at less than 20 feet. He wanted the moose I'd shot the night before, if I'd of known he was there he could have had it. I've had to defend myself from 3 blacks including one I drove off by clubbing him over the head with a Marlin 336 in .444 rem, best use I ever found for that gun. I've done pest and nuisances bear work, in beehives, oats crops and pig operations. So don't feel your all alone out there.

Edited to add . . .
Trying to sound high minded by refusing a going away shot is pretty dumb isn't it? If that's the shot I'm offered on a wounded animal I'll take it, and be glad to have it.

I didn't say that. But, if you've already committed the sin of wounding an animal with a poor shot what's the harm in shooting the rest of it up I guess. Hey, if that's the way you roll far be it from me to judge.
I just prefer to make sure of the first shot and not create a bigger screw up.

 

[catnthehatt]

]

Probably has something to do with Boomer being the hired gun to provide protection from polar bears for various groups...Hunting grizzlies and black bears is different from stopping irate big bears.

If i am going to back someone up on dangerous game ( I count black bears as well because i would not be shooting as "back up" unless they were within dangerous borders) I'd be using big stuff for stopping, not recreational hunting.....
Cat

 

[Gatehouse]

]

Not saying it can't happen Gatehouse and if there's a rifle it's likely to happen in, it's a .375 shooting heavy bullets of similar weight but in smaller calibres with lighter bullets, having POI two or three inches horizontally apart is not uncommon....in fact it's quite common.

For me, I've never had much problem in working up hunting loads and practice loads that shot to the same place, in cartridges from 223 to 375 in caliber.... I've never thought it was a difficult task. Picking 2 random boxes of factory ammo and hoping they print together is a different matter, of course..

There is no way I'd ever suggest to anyone that they switch back and forth between bullets depending on the distance or species without first verifying POI at the range. As I say it can work but the chance of disaster is far greater than success.

I wouldn't suggest it either, as I've said. I just use the TSX for everything- With the exception of some reduced loads for grouse, which are only shot at close range anyway. A couple of years ago I made 3 consective CNS shots on a flock of charging grouse with my 300WSM

 

[Gatehouse]

If i am going to back someone up on dangerous game ( I count black bears as well because i would not be shooting as "back up" unless they were within dangerous borders) I'd be using big stuff for stopping, not recreational hunting.....
Cat

I think that's what Boomer was saying....He uses the 260gr bullets for caribou hunting, the 380's if he needs them for the bears.

 

[sheephunter]

Truthfully it's got nothing to do with reloading or factory loading, it's just a fact of the way certain rifles spit certain bullets. Each is unique.

]

For me, I've never had much problem in working up hunting loads and practice loads that shot to the same place, in cartridges from 223 to 375 in caliber.... I've never thought it was a difficult task. Picking 2 random boxes of factory ammo and hoping they print together is a different matter, of course..





I wouldn't suggest it either, as I've said. I just use the TSX for everything- With the exception of some reduced loads for grouse, which are only shot at close range anyway. A couple of years ago I made 3 consective CNS shots on a flock of charging grouse with my 300WSM

 

[Gatehouse]

Truthfully it's got nothing to do with reloading or factory loading, it's just a fact of the way certain rifles spit certain bullets. Each is unique.

I must have got really lucky over the years, with a number of different rifles, then.


Can't find it right now, but I have a pic I've psoited before of a 3 shot 1.5" group (100 yards) in a nice neat triangle.

What made the group interesting was that I used one of each of:

168grTSX handload with H4350

180gr Nosler Partition handload with H 4831

180gr Failsafe factory load.


Again, this was done with no particular attempt to regulate how they impacted the target, the way you can do with increasing or decreasing velocities via handload.

Not ideal but I bet if I was zeroed for any one of them, I could kill a moose or deer at 300.

 

[catnthehatt]

I posted the wrong quote, Gatehouse!!

I actually do agree with you guys!
Cat

 

[Gatehouse]

I posted the wrong quote, Gatehouse!!

I actually do agree with you guys!
Cat

You should be banned from the intraweb!!