Bullet Penetration Question

[sheephunter]

I fail to see your point Gatehouse. At 300 yards that group opens up to 5 or more inches and at 500 it opens up to likely a foot or more, not what I'd call acceptable long range performance which is how I began this discussion. With the proper one bullet load I can count on accuracy in the .5-.8" range, allowing me to be deadly at those longer ranges. If you are indeed confining shots to 100 yards or less then yes, just about anything you stuff in the pipe will give you acceptable accuracy.

I must have got really lucky over the years, with a number of different rifles, then.


Can't find it right now, but I have a pic I've psoited before of a 3 shot 1.5" group (100 yards) in a nice neat triangle.

What made the group interesting was that I used one of each of:

168grTSX handload with H4350

180gr Nosler Partition handload with H 4831

180gr Failsafe factory load.


Again, this was done with no particular attempt to regulate how they impacted the target, the way you can do with increasing or decreasing velocities via handload.

Not ideal but I bet if I was zeroed for any one of them, I could kill a moose or deer at 300.

 

[Gatehouse]

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I fail to see your point Gatehouse.

The point is pretty simple....It's not hard to get 2 different bullets to have the same POI if you experiment a little bit. In my last post I was showing 3 different bullets, 3 different charges, 3 different powders, no particular effort to get them to shoot to similar points, yet they landed close enough to kill most big game at 300 yards!!

Just think of the possiblities by a wee bit of handloading experimentation!!

Have you ever tried to make practice ammo that shoots to the same place as your hunting ammo?

At 300 yards that group opens up to 5 or more inches and at 500 it opens up to likely a foot or more, not what I'd call acceptable long range performance which is how I began this discussion

Actually, it wasn't just long range, it was all hunting circumstances except extreme close range. Here is how you began the discussion:

Gatehouse....close to POI is definitely not good enough when doing some serious long-range shooting. In fact, it's not good enough for any hunting. While practicing on paper is one thing, using two dfferent bullets that have two different POI in a hunting situation borders on irresponsible unless you are talking about some extremely close range encounters like when used as back up for dangerous game and such.

Although you changed your tune a bit here:

If you are indeed confining shots to 100 yards or less then yes, just about anything you stuff in the pipe will give you acceptable accuracy

With the proper one bullet load I can count on accuracy in the .5-.8" range, allowing me to be deadly at those longer ranges.

That's how I do it...As I said in my first post!

All I did was mention that "I suppose I could carry the other ammo....BUT WHY BOTHER?"

 

[Boomer]

Oh, for gosh sakes get over yourself already! Who HASN"T been charged by a bear? My second grizzly was a self defence bear and when he died I ended up with his blood and slobber on me, that little 2 step started in the willows at less than 20 feet. He wanted the moose I'd shot the night before, if I'd of known he was there he could have had it. I've had to defend myself from 3 blacks including one I drove off by clubbing him over the head with a Marlin 336 in .444 rem, best use I ever found for that gun. I've done pest and nuisances bear work, in beehives, oats crops and pig operations. So don't feel your all alone out there.



I didn't say that. But, if you've already committed the sin of wounding an animal with a poor shot what's the harm in shooting the rest of it up I guess. Hey, if that's the way you roll far be it from me to judge.
I just prefer to make sure of the first shot and not create a bigger screw up.

The point I'm making is that I have more bear contacts in a year than you've had in your life. You do live in Calgary right? We have these guys around all the time. Clubbing him over the head with your Marlin?? Marlins are a little fragile for that . . . you might try shooting him next time.

You've never wounded an animal, but you had to beat your bear to death with your Marlin?? I think that takes care of your credibility.

 

[John Y Cannuck]

Using one bullet, while easy, is an insult to handloaders everywhere.
It's what we do! Develop accurate loads for each possibility. The idea is not to have a do it all load, but the BEST load possible for the game being hunted, at the ranges we are likely to see during a given hunt.
It's being fair to the game.
That said, I think there IS a need for a do it all load, under some circumstances. For example, multiple species hunts, and new to the territory hunts (although you really should do your homework).

 

[Omega]

The point I'm making is that I have more bear contacts in a year than you've had in your life. You do live in Calgary right? We have these guys around all the time. Clubbing him over the head with your Marlin?? Marlins are a little fragile for that . . . you might try shooting him next time.

You've never wounded an animal, but you had to beat your bear to death with your Marlin?? I think that takes care of your credibility.

LOL you sir are a puffin strutting around bragging about how big your balls are! I'm quite certain you are a legend in your own mind, but right now you look positively silly, say have you ever heard the Brad Paisley song "So much cooler on line"? I think he playing your song! LOL!
To find me you need to travel about 9 hours north from Calgary, I've lived and worked in the bush my whole life.
Where did I say I killed the bear by clubbing it? Honest to god you are worse than a old woman at making stuff up. I apologize, that is being unkind to old women. That bear is still alive for all I know I never shot him and the Marlin survived the whack on his head. You obviously haven't wandered out from under the street lights if you've never surprised a bear in big timber.
Only a wet behind the ears newbie would surmise that only a wounded bear was dangerous. Here I thought you were touting that you had some knowledge about bears. Talk about have zero credibility you should go hide under your bed!

 

[joe-nwt]

It's just a matter of time once the name calling starts.......

 

[sheephunter]

Using one bullet, while easy, is an insult to handloaders everywhere.
It's what we do! Develop accurate loads for each possibility. The idea is not to have a do it all load, but the BEST load possible for the game being hunted, at the ranges we are likely to see during a given hunt.
It's being fair to the game.
That said, I think there IS a need for a do it all load, under some circumstances. For example, multiple species hunts, and new to the territory hunts (although you really should do your homework).

I couldn't agree more John but the idea of switching loads mid hunt without checking zero....I hope that's not something promoted by handloaders everywhere!

 

[joe-nwt]

I couldn't agree more John but the idea of switching loads mid hunt without checking zero....I hope that's not something promoted by handloaders everywhere!

So if you site you gun in for one of your uber accurate .5 loads so you can shoot out to 500 yards, and then just throw in a 100 yard load, you think you will miss the vitals on an animal?

There's something wrong with your gun........

 

[sheephunter]

So if you site you gun in for one of your uber accurate .5 loads so you can shoot out to 500 yards, and then just throw in a 100 yard load, you think you will miss the vitals on an animal?

There's something wrong with your gun........

Joe, apparently you failed to comprehend my point. All of the loads could be super accurate but the fact remains that they will likely all throw those super accurate groups at different POI. This isn't about one load vs another...it's about common sense and sighting your rifle in with the load you are using. I don't own 100 yard loads.....I shoot all super accurate loads and that could be a dozen different ones for a specific rifle but you definitely wouldn't find me switching between them mid hunt without checking zero and if you'd care to read my previous posts, you'll see that I said basically anything you stuff in the chamber will get the job done at 100 yards. POI has to do with how the bullet acts in relation to your riflings and each bullets acts differently.....sometimes with no loss of accuracy but a definite shift in POI.

 

[Omega]

I must have got really lucky over the years, with a number of different rifles, then.


Can't find it right now, but I have a pic I've psoited before of a 3 shot 1.5" group (100 yards) in a nice neat triangle.

What made the group interesting was that I used one of each of:

168grTSX handload with H4350

180gr Nosler Partition handload with H 4831

180gr Failsafe factory load.


Again, this was done with no particular attempt to regulate how they impacted the target, the way you can do with increasing or decreasing velocities via handload.

Not ideal but I bet if I was zeroed for any one of them, I could kill a moose or deer at 300.

So you load them all to the same velocity, is that what you are saying?

 

[Dogleg]

I couldn't agree more John but the idea of switching loads mid hunt without checking zero....I hope that's not something promoted by handloaders everywhere!

The idea is to do the checking long before you go hunting. Some people may change loads because they don't know what they are doing. Some can change loads because they know exactly what they are doing.
Accuracy is all well and good, but there are plenty of circumstances where good enough, is good enough. Specialty loads may not have any more requirements than to be reliable and provide an option that the primary load does not. The soft in the barrel and magazine full of solids is a classic example.

 

[Gatehouse]

So you load them all to the same velocity, is that what you are saying?

Not necessarily exactly the same. Pretty close, though. I use a bullet that has a similar BC, similar shape etc.

Generally I get the practice ammo to impact pretty darn close and then quit..It's usually good enough so that practice to about 350, although some require slightly different elevation adjustments at longer range.

Some don't, like the aforementioned milk jugs at 450.

And some just won't work, and it's easier to just your scope and then adjust it back after a range session. But I've had pretty good luck with many rifles.

With these-

168grTSX handload with H4350

180gr Nosler Partition handload with H 4831

180gr Failsafe factory load.

They weren't really close in velocity. I just had one of each left at the end of a range session and wanted to see what kind of group they made.

 

[sheephunter]

The idea is to do the checking long before you go hunting. Some people may change loads because they don't know what they are doing. Some can change loads because they know exactly what they are doing.
Accuracy is all well and good, but there are plenty of circumstances where good enough, is good enough. Specialty loads may not have any more requirements than to be reliable and provide an option that the primary load does not. The soft in the barrel and magazine full of solids is a classic example.

I couldn't agree more Dogleg and there are occasions where switching loads means little more than a slight vertical shift or possibly none at all and at close range, you are correct that it is no big deal but there seems to be this belief by many on here that you can make major switches between loads mid hunt and there are no ramifications. Well anyone that has shot various loads at the range can tell you there likely are huge ramifications. Rifling, barrel harmonics and a host of other factors all play into POI and for those that have spent any time at the range, they can attest to that. Having a pocket full of 100 yards, 200 yard and 300 yard shells is ludacrous and where this discussion began. Pick a load that best covers the variables for that specific hunt and stick with it. If having a magazine full of solids for back up makes you comfortable fine but I bet you aren't using your laser range finder to determine which bullet you pull out of your pocket for your first shot.........everything after that one is pretty desperation anyhow and the most accurate load/rifle in the world doesn't matter a hill of beans at that point. I'd suggest that even the best shooter goes from a 1/2-inch group to two or three inches after that shots been fired. I'm talking about selecting the first shot here....not your second. I know I'm not heading afield without a rifle zeroed for the first shot....are you? Would you be comfortable having your rifle zeroed with a 200 grain soft point but at the last minute deciding that a 150 grain mono metal was a better option?

 

[Gatehouse]

The idea is to do the checking long before you go hunting. Some people may change loads because they don't know what they are doing. Some can change loads because they know exactly what they are doing.
.

You just got me thinking....A person *could* simply carry an adjustment chart with them, and switch scope settings accordingly if he wanted to switch loads in the field.

I dont' do it, wouldn't work if you are in a hurry and it sounds too much like work, but it's possible!

 

[sheephunter]

Defitely possible Gatehouse but adjusting both elevation and windage kind of seems pointless when there are many bullets on the market that will do the job just fine when zeroed for your rifle/scope. Possible..yes....ridiculous....defintely. It would be much more than a simple elevation adjustment as horizontal shifts are equally likely.

 

[Omega]

They weren't really close in velocity. I just had one of each left at the end of a range session and wanted to see what kind of group they made.

What's "not real close"? 100, 200 400 fps?

 

[Gatehouse]

I couldn't agree more Dogleg and there are occasions where switching loads means little more than a slight vertical shift or possibly none at all and at close range, you are correct that it is no big deal but there seems to be this belief by many on here that you can make major switches between loads mid hunt and there are no ramifications. ?

I think more accurate is that a few people here mentioned that they use light loads for harvesting small game at close range with thier big game rifle, pointed out that mixing solids and softs has been common practice in Africa, Boomer will switch to a heavy load if he thinks a polar bear encounter at close range is imminent, and that some of us make practice ammo that largely mimics our big game ammo.

 

[Gatehouse]

What's "not real close"? 100, 200 400 fps?

IIRC, the Nosler Protected Point Partition was going about 2900fps, the Failsafe 2980, and the 168gr TSX about 3100.

About 200 fps spread from top to bottom


Here, I tracked down the pic. Looks like I lied a bit- It looks like the group is larger than 1.5" more like 1.75"...Still pretty good considering 3 totally different bullet construction, B.C., speed, powder and primer. All cases were W*W - But the Failsafe was a nickel plated case.

 

[Gatehouse]

Defitely possible Gatehouse but adjusting both elevation and windage kind of seems pointless when there are many bullets on the market that will do the job just fine when zeroed for your rifle/scope. Possible..yes....ridiculous....defintely. It would be much more than a simple elevation adjustment as horizontal shifts are equally likely.

I don't think I tried to make a case for it being practical, just possible

 

[sheephunter]

I think more accurate is that a few people here mentioned that they use light loads for harvesting small game at close range with thier big game rifle, pointed out that mixing solids and softs has been common practice in Africa, Boomer will switch to a heavy load if he thinks a polar bear encounter at close range is imminent, and that some of us make practice ammo that largely mimics our big game ammo.

So what you are saying then, is that for the most part switching bullets mid hunt without re-zeroing is a poor practice other than in a couple special circumstances because of shifts in POI between types and grains of bullets?