Smokeless 455...

[sportee]

Here's the next chapter in the smokless loads for antiques series...

Whos is loading smokeless in their antique 455's?

I know there are a few webleys, colts and others out there and I know a few that load really hot stuff for their antiques (im not sure how many fingers they have left )

What are you guys loading in your 455's? More specifically for an SAA or a 78 colt.

 

[dingus]

Well i load 5 grs of unique in my 455s with the proper 265 gr HB webley bullets.
BUT i also have a couple guns that i load 2400 in im not gona list my loads for that stuff tho as i get jumped on by all the THATS DANGEROUS crowd

Read what Elmer Keith in his great books Sixguns Recomends for old SAAs and 1878s
You should buy that Book Sportee its the best book i have on Sixguns.
theres BP and smokeless loads in there.
the 1878 and SAA colts are stronger than the break open Webleys so can take more heavy loads than Any Break open frame guns.

The strongest gun i have thats Antique is the 1875 Remigton Army model.
Its also got the best SA i have seen.
once its all finished i will post some pictures of it.

 

[david doyle]

I agree ya gotta read keith's sixguns. I never would'a aimed at a 150 yard target with a mkII until I read keith!

 

[Musketfire]

Call me silly , as I have zero experience with handguns except my dads old ones from my childhood,
But I know that smokeless even in small amounts in blackpowder long arms designed for BLACK POWDER is not a IF its gonna blow but a WHEN preposal.

And those thin walls on a revolver cylinder chamber, would make nice fragmentation.

Sorry to be a jerk , I just want folk to know that guns designed for black powder were never made to take the pressures generated by smokeless.

That old colt 1878, is a bit of history, why push her to a point where she could be damaged.

Cheers

 

[green]

The service .455" cordite (smokeless) loads were approved for use in all Webley service revolvers including those produced before the introduction of smokeless as well as the preceding Enfield pistols.

 

[gregs5190]

Here's the next chapter in the smokless loads for antiques series...



I know there are a few webleys, colts and others out there and I know a few that load really hot stuff for their antiques (im not sure how many fingers they have left )


I feel my ears burningby the way I still have 6 fingers left not bad for a guy who started with 11

 

[BigUglyMan]

I've got a Second Model Hand Ejector. I'm nto reloading for it at present but do shoot smokeless Fiocchi loads.

With regard to using smokeless in BP firearms, one need only read Seyfried's work on Nitro-for-Black loading to know that, with some knowledge and careful loading, one can load smokeless in any good condition BP arms without any damage to yourself or the gun.

 

[mooncoon]

But I know that smokeless even in small amounts in blackpowder long arms designed for BLACK POWDER is not a IF its gonna blow but a WHEN preposal.

I would not call you silly but I would call you unknowledgeable. Loading smokeless without precise measuring of charges is foolish and dangerous. On the other hand if you know what pressure your load generates and stick to a load that is within the safe limits for that cartridge and gun, you are just as safe as if you were loading black powder. There are two big differences; small increases in the amount of pistol powder can generate large differences in pressure and secondly is that some people like to soup up their guns above the pressures and velocities of black powder.

cheers mooncoon

 

[Andy]

I would not call you silly but I would call you unknowledgeable. Loading smokeless without precise measuring of charges is foolish and dangerous. On the other hand if you know what pressure your load generates and stick to a load that is within the safe limits for that cartridge and gun, you are just as safe as if you were loading black powder. There are two big differences; small increases in the amount of pistol powder can generate large differences in pressure and secondly is that some people like to soup up their guns above the pressures and velocities of black powder.

cheers mooncoon

Well put. I load smokeless in several antique guns "designed for blackpowder" (Mauser 71/84, Swiss Vetterli, Swedish Rolling Block, etc.), and if I stay below the design pressure for those guns, they will be as safe to shoot as if I used blackpowder. In fact probably safer, as I avoid the dangers unique to blackpowder (especially in the storage and handling stages), and I enjoy a much cleaner shooting experience.

Given that blackpowder loads are typically a full case, that provides a mindless safeguard you don't have with smokeless, unless you choose a safe load that happens to be a full case of powder. Typically though, it is not a full case, and caution must be the order of the day, just like it is with all loads of smokeless used in "modern" firearms. For example, if you use a full case of Unique in a 30/06, bad things happen, because you exceed the firearm's design limit for pressure.

 

[Win 38-55]

I've shot a couple thousand smokeless rounds in a variety of 1800's black powder Winchesters and antique sixguns and have never had a problem, primarily, because I use slower smokeless powders and keep the ballistics close to original bP ballistics. I also prefer slow enough smokeless powders that I can use capacity, or near capacity loads. Also, powders that burn slower than 2400 actually generate lower peak pressure than black powder for the same ballistics. Sherman Bell has a couple articles on this, where he reports on actual pressures.

 

[dingus]

Ya Win 38 55s ideas on smokeless make sence to me.
i use 2400 only because i can duplicate what old Elmer Keith did useing his Exact loads.
Good to see theres more Pro Smokeless than Against here.
Truthfully tho its all in the Reloading.
If you know what your doing all seems good.
And of course guns should be in Ex condition.

 

[DEZ]

I have used Blue dot in mine with low vel. loads

 

[Musketfire]

Ok you can use smokeless in b/p arms??
I agree I am aplenty lacking in this dept.

This cordite, what is its performance when compared to the holy black?
is there any adverse ignition specks , like a insanely high ignition point??

Everything I have read and everything I have been told has led me to believe that b/p and approved subs, are the only ammo acceptable in arms designed for them.

Facinating thread guys, I love learning new things!

Now as far as the glory of blackpowder....I myself prefer it to smokeless, the smoke and fire, the cleaning afterwards, hell I even love the smell.It just seems to make things so very deliberate, if you catch my meaning



But if I could learn more about this, I feel it would only add to my knoledge ,make me a better and safer reloader.

So guys more info damn it, my mind is a dry sponge waiting for your info!!

Cheers

 

[mooncoon]

This cordite, what is its performance when compared to the holy black?
is there any adverse ignition specks , like a insanely high ignition point??

cordite was a long stringy smokeless powder (think the length of the shell) used in turn of the century rifle shells. I doubt that it has been made or used in the last 70 years or so. In performance it would have been like many rifle grade smokeless powders

cheers mooncoon

 

[sportee]

Holy Crap! Did this ever start the argument up again.

I know there are lots of folks that cautiously used smokeless in their pre-1898's and then there are those that say if your using smokeless your holding a ticking time bomb.

I didn't mean to start the argument up again. just wanted to get a bit on info from those that have been doing it for years with success.

Dingus, you mention Keith's loading info...Do you ever use Venturino's?

 

[green]

The cordite used in the .455" was called revolver cordite. It was the same formula as rifle cordite but was cut in sort fine pieces which looked like tiny macaronis. Cordite was a double base powder containing nitroglycerine like Bullseye or Unique.

 

[ben hunchak]

I won't get into the smokeless vs black safety issues here as I am not real familiar with that particular gun or the strengths and weaknesses of the 1878 Colt. The one factor I am very familiar with is that when one compares velocity to pressure of most of these old cartridges you will find that; when used to produce a certain velocity(equal) the BP loading will be lower pressure. For instance; load up some .45 Colt smokeless loads to 900fps. and load some BP loads to 900fps...the BP loads will produce less pressure, don't take my word for it; this is right from Lyman.

 

[Win 38-55]

The one factor I am very familiar with is that when one compares velocity to pressure of most of these old cartridges you will find that; when used to produce a certain velocity(equal) the BP loading will be lower pressure. For instance; load up some .45 Colt smokeless loads to 900fps. and load some BP loads to 900fps...the BP loads will produce less pressure, don't take my word for it; this is right from Lyman.

Lyman needs to be a little more specific than that; their general statement is simply not true. I've seen the results published by Sherman Bell (and have a hard copy in my office) on actual pressure curves for slower powders, compared to BP. It really depends upon the burn rates of the different powders. Powders slower than 2400/Blue Dot actually give a lower peak pressure for the same velocity. Lyman should know better than to write what they did. Powders faster than 2400/Blue Dot tend to give higher peak pressures for the same velocity. In general, the slower the powder, the lower the peak pressure for the same velocity. The black powder crossover point is in the neighbourhood of 2400/Blue Dot.

 

[dingus]

I won't get into the smokeless vs black safety issues here as I am not real familiar with that particular gun or the strengths and weaknesses of the 1878 Colt. The one factor I am very familiar with is that when one compares velocity to pressure of most of these old cartridges you will find that; when used to produce a certain velocity(equal) the BP loading will be lower pressure. For instance; load up some .45 Colt smokeless loads to 900fps. and load some BP loads to 900fps...the BP loads will produce less pressure, don't take my word for it; this is right from Lyman.

Thats typical from a Lyman book.
It depends on the gun powder they dont even list some of the powders we use.
With a little common sence useing 2400 and *others* its as safe and alot cleaner than BP in say 45 Schofield and 45 colt loads 44 Russian 44 SP.
BP can cause problems to. Just get some air space in your Reloads and see what happens.
the 1878 Colt frontier is a Very strong Frame and cylinder as the Cylinder has no stop notches cut into the side of it.

This is my minty Antique BP frame 1873 SAA Colt that shoots 44 russian and 44 SP and i wont list my loads but it lets a 245 Gr Keiths bullet do 1000FPS with no problem or presure concerns.
The frame has been case hardened.

 

[Win 38-55]

This is my minty Antique BP frame 1873 SAA Colt that shoots 44 russian and 44 SP and i wont list my loads but it lets a 245 Gr Keiths bullet do 1000FPS with no problem or presure concerns.
The frame has been case hardened.

Dingus, I get all weak and shaky looking at that photo. If you ever decide to sell that beauty, please email me with your price, and I'll try not to throw my shoulder out reaching for my wallet!