Anti-Bear gun for 55 year old female guide...

S

swissrallyman

CGN Regular
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
So my girlfriend's mom got a job as a guide for some outfitting company, mainly on horseback. She is required to carry a non-restricted firearm to protect clients and herself from Mother Nature. She is 55 years old, about 130 punds and has absolutely no shooting experience, although she does have her FAC.
The owner of the company that she will work for recommended a pistol grip 12 gauge, and I strongly tried to tell her to get a regular stock with it. But she didnt listen to my advice, and instead went to the Gunstore and asked their advice.
Next day she buys a Remington 870 Express with a pistol grip and a pistol grip fore-end. And they guy at the gunstore sells her deer slugs along with it and told her to "just shoot from the hip"!!! And he told her not to worry about recoil, as there would hardly be any.

So now you have a woman with no shooting experience shooting a pistol grip 12 gauge from "the hip" shooting deer slugs. What are the chances of her hitting and killing an attacking grizzly running at her with full speed?

So I told her I'd bring a box or two of #8 birdshot over so she can practise shooting it with that... And she doesnt want to!!! She says she will only shoot it if she has too...I gave up... Let's just hope she never needs to use it.

If she shoots it from the hip (salesman gave her 3 inch magnum slugs!!!?!!) she'll just hurt her wrists, and if she tries to aim with it it will knock her teeth out!!!

I told her to get any reliable synthetic 12 gauge pump action, regular stock, low-recoil buckshot, night-sights and a sling. Perfect, right?

Please discuss..... I will print out your contributions and show her.
 
I don't have much experience here, but if I were you I would shoot it infront of her to show her the recoil and see what she says about that. I am thinking, again not much experience, that it would be enough to scare the bear away. Not sure.
 
I think you are right on, go with a full stock model. Maybe shoot some trap to get used to moving targets and gun handling. fire slugs later so she will know what to expect. If she ever has to shoot a bear she won't feel the recoil.

She WILL miss with a pistol grip gun.
 
Last edited:
Dude...the last thing you want to do is give your prospective mother in law a gun.

Having a gun does not make you a shooter any more than having a guitar makes you a musician.

If her client's lives are potentially depending on her skills with a shotgun, then from what you are saying both her and her employer are irresponsible, negligent, and stupid.
 
Having a gun does not make you a shooter any more than having a guitar makes you a musician.

If her client's lives are potentially depending on her skills with a shotgun, then from what you are saying both her and her employer are irresponsible, negligent, and stupid.[/QUOTE]

Thank you.
 
If she doesn't familiarize herself with the gun before she has to pull it out in a panic......well, I dont see much good coming out of that scenario. I am well versed in almost ALL firearms, and when I have to " panic draw" a gun, my memory sometimes goes blank as to what to do and the order of the steps needed to successfully fire at and hit my target.
Pulling it out "IF she ever needs it" will be too late. Good luck remembering to turn off the safety, and heaven forbid she have to actually load it.
Tell her to stop being so cocky and get out to the range. Once she puts a couple of hundred rounds through the gun would I even consider her competent. May the lord have mercy on her clients souls.
Why doesn't she get a short barrelled 20 guage or 28 guage with buckshot or slugs? Or even a .410 with slugs. She needs to have a butt stock support to actually hit something, even a foldout. And finally, that gun store employee needs a stiff Bit*hslap. What was he thinking..? I'll tell you what!
"Man , I've got to get this chick out of my store, maybe she'll think this "riot" shotgun will be cool looking, buy it, and take off. I'll be glad to get rid of that gun, its been sitting on the shelf forever. Everyone seems to want a shotgun with a butt stock for shot stability and decreased denture replacement bills, and its just killing me. "
Tell her to google pistol gripped shotguns on you tube to see what they are like. I have seen a few people try to aim them and they got whallopped in the chops. You wouldn't let a friend drive drunk, why would you let her go out and risk her and her clients lives with this cavalier attitude. Hope she comes to her senses. Or even a .30-30 or other light recoiling multishot gun.
 
My first question is why is she, with no firearm experience, being set up as a carrying guide in the first place? I definitely agree that this is negligence on many people's parts when it comes to her own / customer safety. Knowing this, I wouldn't want to give her company my business, to be frank.

Swissrallyman, it's your responsibility to get her head a good shaking. At the very least, get her out shooting beforehand so that she at least realizes how flawed the advice she was given was and how inept her defense plan proves to be.

If she doesn't listen, try persuading with common sense. If she's on horseback, a scabbard would very quickly eliminate any conveniences of a pistol grip. Doesn't fix the situation, but it's a small step closer.

The truth is a curious bear with a fake charge could be turned into a wounded bear that'll kill her, her horse, and all of her clients if she made the poor decision to shoot without knowing how to handle her firearm. It's happened before.
 
Last edited:
Dukeoflawnchair said:
My first question is why is she, with no firearm experience, being set up as a carrying guide in the first place? I definitely agree that this is negligence on many people's parts when it comes to her own / customer safety. Knowing this, I wouldn't want to give her company my business, to be frank.

Swissrallyman, it's your responsibility to get her head a good shaking. At the very least, get her out shooting beforehand so that she at least realizes how flawed the advice she was given was and how inept her defense plan proves to be.

If she doesn't listen, try persuading with common sense. If she's on horseback, a scabbard would very quickly eliminate any conveniences of a pistol grip. Doesn't fix the situation, but it's a small step closer.

The truth is a curious bear with a fake charge could be turned into a wounded bear that'll kill her, her horse, and all of her clients if she made the poor decision to shoot without knowing how to handle her firearm. It's happened before.
Click to expand...

+1 on all of that , well said!!!:slap:
 
which outfitter is this ? so i can avoid it like the plague.....

3" slugs from the hip with a pistol grip is gonna hurt some. and without practice she will be lucky if she can hit the broad side of a barn from 10 paces. and as others have said. if she tries to aim she will quickly have to lean how to eat with no teeth and a broken nose.

i might point out to her that she really needs to goto the range, or your going to the proper authorities for unsafe work practices for the outfitter then she and her boss will be out of a job.
 
Last edited:
the shotgun was a reasonable choice.
The pistol grip wasn't.
As you are aware, a regular shotgun can also be fired from the hip, with the advantage of placing the butt beside the hip for support.
The lack of practice is just plain dumb, it could cost her, her life.
She's got to get that figured out. Maybe you could get her to try another shotgun, compared to hers? I'm guessing the reason she won't fire it, is because she's afraid of the recoil.
 
Make sure that Pracice comes first.
If anyone have not shot a Firearm, then that person can be more of a Trouble than a Protector.
I am surprised, how come a Outfitter hire someone with almost No Experience to work as a Guide.
My Brother used to be a Guide long time back and believe you me , there are things happening which we all can never control , specially if not experienced.
GOOD LUCK.
 
Who the heck runs this operation? Talk to the boss and get the boss to understand that a dead or mauled client will close his business for good. She needs to practice to find out if she can indeed save someone's azz.

She must be one good looking woman. No experience with bears and or shooting and no one seems to care. Is she boinking the boss or what?

As for weapon of choice, does she even know how to use a pump? (never mind the fact that it's a freaken pistol grip!!!) It requires practice for it to become "natural" to the shooter. Maybe a double barrel coachun would be a better choice...however she only has two shots and better make them count.

Anyhow, the whole thing is ludicous.
 
I have helped teach siesmic workers problem wildlife control when I worked for F & W. Most were in the same class as your mother in law. She is heading for a wreck! First she has the wrong gun as everyone here agrees, should have a butt stock. Second of all it takes a lot of shooting from the hip to be able to hit a charging bear from the hip, hell it takes a lot of shooting to hit a charging bear while aiming a shotgun with open sights. Lots of practise with the proper shotgun and last round in the mag should be buckshot. 3" magnums are definately a huge dissadvantadge, to much recoil slows the shooting down enough she will likely only get off one shot before she is severely injured by a charging bear. Where will she be guiding eg. parks or area where there is hunting. She is probably better off with a can of bear spray, in fact everyone in the group should have a can.
If you don't want to post the name of the store and the outfitter who hired her please P.M. the names to me, they deserve to have a talking to.
 
This is a recipe for disaster.

What the hell was the company and the gun store thinking?

I'm worried that we're going to be reading another article about a woman mauled by a bear within reach of a firearm that is useless.
 
Being tasked with protecting clients with no previous shooting experience is a tough situation to be in, and I don't envy her.

The choice of firearm will be what she can get her hands on quickly, and be able to buy ammo for over the counter. The firearm must be compact enough to carry on horseback, absolutely reliable, and powerful enough to deal with a wildlife problem and although you don't say where this is I'll assume it could include grizzlies, black bears, and cougars.

The gal is small, but if she is an experienced horse wrangler she is probably tougher than her size might suggest. There are a number of solutions that would resolve the problem, but most of them require a gun with at least some custom features, and at the very least it would require that the gun fit her properly. This takes time and it sounds like the time is not something she has. That's too bad, because she needs to become competent with the gun before she can protect herself or anyone else with it.

I'll offer two suggestions coming at the problem from different directions. The first is a short barrel semi-auto 12 gauge shotgun. Semi-autos have a bad rap for reliability but in practice a quality gun kept in good condition is as reliable as anything else. The power available from a 12 gauge slug is reassuring. With any luck she can get 23/4" Brennekes, but if those aren't available then 23/4" Challengers. Under no circumstances should she be shooting 3". The 3" slugs generate more recoil, and do not penetrate any better. The flat faced design of these slugs punch big holes, and the slugs are hard enough not to flatten out, so penetration is not compromised. The advantage of the semi-auto is two part. First there is the recoil dampening of the gas operated action which will be a benefit to her. The second advantage is that there is no danger the she will short stroke the action. Every-time she pulls the trigger it will fire, so if she can control her fear she will prevail. The gun should be equipped with rifle sights, a ghost ring and post being the best option from a stand point of ruggedness and speed. All she has to do is put the post on the target and press the trigger, ignoring the rear sight as long as she is looking through it.

The second option is to choose a moderate caliber short action rifle. My wife shoots a light weight .30/06, but for someone with no shooting experience a light '06 might be a bit much without time to work into it. It doesn't sound like handloads are going to be an option either. All things considered, I would suggest bolt action carbine in .308, perhaps Ruger's M-77 Youth Model would fit her. She should use 180 gr loads, and the rifle should be equipped with rifle sights like the shotgun. A ghost ring for the M-77 could be ordered directly from New England Custom Gun.

It's possible that this is something that she is going to want to stick with for a while, and if so, the more seasons she does this work the more likely she is to run into a bear problem at some time. That being the case I would suggest she order a custom rifle in a major caliber that will fit her. The sky's the limit, but she could do very well with a $3000.00 budget. I would think in terms of a .458 bolt gun and a handloading set up. MT Chambers produces an excellent .458/480 gr WFN cast bullet that does not rely on high velocity to kill bears. Start out with loads in the 1200 fps range and work up from there as her tolerance to recoil increases.

That's for the future and right now with what ever gun she chooses she must become competent with it in the shortest amount of time. Much can be accomplished with an hour a night of working the action, shouldering the piece, and dry firing at the TV. Placing a quarter on the top of the barrel at the muzzle will encourage her to press the trigger rather than jerk it. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast! If she works at finding her natural point of aim, muscle memory will make that automatic in the field. Shooting should start at 5 yards, and for the short term should not exceed 50. Work at snap shooting, and shooting moving targets, such as a pail dragged behind a quad.

Hope this helps, and I wish her well.

Edited to add . . .
Marksmanship and gun handeling is only part of the equation. If she does not have wilderness experience concerning bear behavoir she needs to bone up on this very quickly. The 3 books by James Garry Shelton, "Bear Encounter Survival Guide," "Bear Attacks, the Deadly Truth," and Bear Attacks II, Myth and Reality" are a good place to start, along with Steve Herrero's book, "Bear Attacks, Their Causes and Avoidance." These are perhaps the best books written on the subject. There are videos available as well, such as "Staying Safe in Bear Country" and "Working in Bear Country" that are useful. I'd be happy to answer spcific questions or concerns she might have via a PM or email. As I think about this I think she should get out and hunt big game this fall. It's hard to be confident in your ability to kill a dangerous bear if you've never killed a big game animal. She won't know what to expect when she fires, and that will interfere with her concentration. Get someone locally who can get her out and kill something. Normally hunting isn't about killing, but in this case I'll make an exception.
 
Last edited:
Def. full stock with a decent recoil pad, and for god sakes get her to shoot it before she has to use it to save herself and others.
It would be like a skydiver jumping out of a plane without checking if his backpack was full of schoolbooks or a parachute.
Show her this video and ask how many shots she could get off.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LZnsL7-UdGc
 
Its hard to believe a responsible outfitter would hire an older lady to guide (and apparently protect) clients with next to no firearm experience. I would think that would be a prerequisite for the job. Guess not. At the very least, she should have lots of practise with one before going out into the field. BTW, she'll be "in for a suprise" when she fires that 3" slug from the hip.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom