2 Deer. One shot. UHH OHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Hey Mike,

you are right on the money, little to no expansion is the reason for it...the military uses them because they feed more reliably, no lead tip to get deformed and cause a jam, plus penetration is better as well...but for terminal performance they are not the best...a soft point is ideal or a barnes type...and as for complete penetration..that is very common on broadside shots as everyone's been saying and it's not a bad thing as two holes will leave a better blood trail then one....but if you do your part and hit both lungs or the heart you probably won't need to track very far. Out of all the deer i've shot (about 20) only once has the bullet failed to completely penetrate, that was with a .303 british using a federal powershok..i hit the shoulder dead on and it blew up in the bone on the first shoulder...luckily the shock put the guy down long enough for me to get another round in the chest...sorry about earlier.

Ian
 
As for a few comments re. FMJ, energy dump etc here are my opinions on a few factors re. bullet performance.


Dumping all the energy inside the animal does little to ensure a kill. The actual energy level has been compared to the amount of energy required to boil a cup of water. Bullets kill by destroying tissue vital for life. This does take a reasonable amount of energy. The speed at which the animal dies depends on how much and which tissues are destroyed. A central nervous system hit destroys brain or spine, necessary for sending messages to all body functions as movement including breathing or heart beat . A heart lung shot destroys oxygen intake and/or transfer because of loss of blood pressure. With its lungs or heart damaged sufficiently an animal will lose consciousness and later die. They may run a fair distance but are in the process of dying. Even with its heart totally destroyed and therefore zero blood pressure a deer will still function enough to run 100 yards or so.

FMJ leave very narrow wounds so may not destroy enough tissues even when struck in the chest. Hollow points are legal but many of them are very lightly constructed and many but not all of these are target rounds which may blow up on or near the surface and not reach the vital tissues or pencil through . Most of the newer tipped bullets are derived from hollow points with a tip to aid trajectory. They usually have a thicker jacket to control expansion but the tip will provide initial expansion. Some bullets feature inner rings to lock core and jacket others have a chemical bonding process.
Neither total expansion nor no expansion work on normal game. Only very large solid animals like cape buff or elephant need solids. On these the vitals are deep inside so the bullet must get there and the huntger may be shootinmg to break down the skeletal system. When expanded bullets do not penetrate as much. A lot of the initial energy has been used up in deforming the bullet and of course it is now punching a much bigger hole.

As for the "copper" surrounding or covering the complete surface of a .22 it is not there to strengthen the bullet or control expansion but rather is there prevent leading and act almost as a lube. .22 rimfires are not legal for big game whether exposed lead, copper washed or lubed with a grease.

Armies use FMJ because of a treaty which forbids exposed lead. Such rounds cause horrendous wounds. A FMJ will usually infect a serious enough injury to take the man out of combat without the same devestation as an expanding round.
 
Mr. Friendly said:
hey Gatehouse, why would it exiting the other side be desirable?

?
Click to expand...


Exit wounds let blood out, and air in.

The whole "expending all it's energy inside the animal" thing is basically bunk.

Who cares where the bullet ends up if the vitals are destroyed?

Who cares where the energy goes if the vitals are destroyed?

Yes, there is some "energy transfer" when you put a bullet into an animal , but it is not the 'energy dump" that kills them.

When I shoot an animal, and the bullet passes right through it, and it dies right there, should I complain that there wasn't enough "energy dumped" inside the animal?
 
Totally correct about the 2 hole theory. 2 holes bleed much better than one. That line that the energy is wasted by not staying inside the animal is crapola. If you make a single hole without an exit hole, often the animals fur/skin shifts over the single entry wound slowing bloodloss. An exit wound is much larger than an entry wound and speeds up the death significantly. Also, complete penetration means a maximum wound channel , whereas a single hole means a less than max travel , all leading to less tissue damage and most likely a long time looking for an animal that ran off into the woods. I really dislike lugging a dead animal an extra 2-3 hundred yards or more when I could have dropped it where it stood.
 
I can't verify how much truth there is to this, but is an excerpt from the 1927 meeting minutes of our hunt camp:

“During the course of the evening Dad Baker was prevailed upon to tell for the benefit of the visitor, Dr. Spence, and to the undying glory of the Club, the true and detailed version of his remarkable accomplishment during the 1925 Hunt, of shooting, hitting and causing to die with one single bullet, three separate, distinct and individual deer – two fawns and one doe, on that section of the Club’s hunting grounds known as Horses Trail. In his characteristically modest manner, Dad once again narrated the simple story of old, almost the same as he told it last time, a feat unparalleled in History or Geography, and backing Lindbergh’s transatlantic flight across two more oceans. The Members were held spell-bound and the Secretary greatly regrets that owing to the enthralling nature of the narrative (and possibly to two drinks of sarsaparilla) he failed to record this true version as spoken.”
 
I have been witness to a two deer/one bullet event. 30-06/ white tail doe, and the fawn running beside her. It happens.

A bud was hunting in the Hudsons Bay area of SK when a bull moose stood up. His hunting partner whacked it, and it dropped. Then it stood up, so he shot it again.

Two bulls!

Didn't even have to call the CO's, as one had been watching from a ways away, and had come over to check tags and such. CO made the guys clean up the second moose, and haul it to his truck, so it could go to the local food bank program, but other than that, even he thought it was the same moose.

Cheers
Trev
 
You posted this:

watsknew said:
just for everyone's info...FMJ are ILLEGAL to hunt with..you really should do your homework before you start speaking off the cuff...
Click to expand...

and then proceed to ask me to do your homework for you.

Where in Canada are you allowed to use FMJ for hunting big game?
Click to expand...

I very quickly found 3 provinces that do not prohibit them for hunting big game (I only looked at 4). One is New Brunswick. I'll let you roll up your sleeves and do your own homework to find out the others.:D
 
Last edited:
sjemac said:
You posted this:



and then proceed to ask me to do your homework for you.



I very quickly found 3 provinces that do not prohibit them for hunting big game (I only looked at 4). One is Nova Scotia. I'll let you roll up your sleeves and do your own homework to find out the others.:D
Click to expand...



Nice try...i'm from NS..and you cannot hunt with FMJ.
 
sjemac said:
You posted this:



and then proceed to ask me to do your homework for you.



I very quickly found 3 provinces that do not prohibit them for hunting big game (I only looked at 4). One is Nova Scotia. I'll let you roll up your sleeves and do your own homework to find out the others.:D
Click to expand...



here's an exerpt from the Nova Scotia Wildlife Act

Prohibited weapons

81 Every person is guilty of an offence who uses or possesses, in a wildlife habitat, any


(a) automatic firearm;


(b) prohibited or restricted firearm, except under the authority of the Criminal Code (Canada);


(c) firearm which has been altered to operate as an automatic firearm;


(d) bullet of a tracer or incendiary type;


(e) arrow equipped with an explosive type of head of any description or tipped or carrying any poison or drug of any description;


(f) full metal cased non-mushrooming or non-expanding bullet or ball; or


(g) item prescribed by regulation. R.S., c. 504, s. 81.




Now if you'd like to keep arguing be my guest...i did my homework..you did not and they are illegal to hunt big game with....and in Nova Scotia you cannot step one foot in the woods with FMJ in your weapon..that's how dangerous people like you are..flapping off at the gums and giving people bad advice which could result in serious fines, loss of vehicles, etc. etc.


here's the url of the full Wildlife Act.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/legislature/legc/statutes/wildlife.htm
 
In BC you can't hunt big game with FMJ, however in some parts of the world, it's commonly used in situations where deep penetration is essential.
 
watsknew said:
here's an exerpt from the Nova Scotia Wildlife Act

Prohibited weapons

81 Every person is guilty of an offence who uses or possesses, in a wildlife habitat, any


(a) automatic firearm;


(b) prohibited or restricted firearm, except under the authority of the Criminal Code (Canada);


(c) firearm which has been altered to operate as an automatic firearm;


(d) bullet of a tracer or incendiary type;


(e) arrow equipped with an explosive type of head of any description or tipped or carrying any poison or drug of any description;


(f) full metal cased non-mushrooming or non-expanding bullet or ball; or


(g) item prescribed by regulation. R.S., c. 504, s. 81.




Now if you'd like to keep arguing be my guest...i did my homework..you did not and they are illegal to hunt big game with....and in Nova Scotia you cannot step one foot in the woods with FMJ in your weapon..that's how dangerous people like you are..flapping off at the gums and giving people bad advice which could result in serious fines, loss of vehicles, etc. etc.


here's the url of the full Wildlife Act.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/legislature/legc/statutes/wildlife.htm
Click to expand...


My mistake was looking through Nova Scotia regs while typing. I meant New Brunswick:redface:
 
I keep trying to line up a 2 fer on deer but never manage to get it lined up for the shot.

been close on several occasions, but usually they wont stay still in a positon that will gice me a clean shot, I get impatient and just shoot one :D less work anyways.
 
just a fyi:

relating to the video, the camera or cameraman "felt" the recoil of the shot so I'm guessing they were very close, thus the theory of having the shooter way lower/farther is out of the question... unless the cameraman is a little girly man... LOL

Hmm which brings up an interesting thought... bring a liberal hunting, they might learn something.
 
bisonhd said:
In BC you can't hunt big game with FMJ, however in some parts of the world, it's commonly used in situations where deep penetration is essential.
Click to expand...


So BC, AB, NS so far have been confirmed..i'll keep digging...and i wasn't referring to worldwide when i made that statement..i could care less outside of canada and in the context of the question one would've assumed i was talking about Canada...most of the states have a ban and i will get the actually proof instead of redneck heresay...and Smegma..or Sjemac...i guess Nova Scotia and New Brunswick both start with N so it's a simple mistake.
 
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