Shot a Grizzly

Perma Gel is ordnance grade which means that it meets all FBI and military spec for bullet testing. In other words it is an accepted representative media to compare to flesh.
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Which is great - and while that can be useful, i don't think even the fbi or military confuses that with being 'the same as'.

My experience and many tests and other hunter's experiences on different medium (including live game) suggests that slugs will be better penetrators in general, and by 'general' i mean in a wider series of mediums over a wider range of distances. However - I guess the only way to actually be sure would be to blast a couple dozen bears at close range with each to be sure what works best on bears.

I'm pretty confident in the whole brenneke slug concept as far as better penetration and stopping power goes, but if your testing leads you to believe you'd be better served by buck, or a specific species of buck, then i wouldn't discourage you from using it, that's for sure.

Hopefully neither of us will ever have cause to find out who was right :)
 
The fact of the matter is the lead slugs did expand and it cost them dearly in the penetration department. The energy or momentum couldn't over come the construction.
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Well THAT's no good. Can't have them breaking apart. Thats why i wondered how the brenneke's would fare, they're much harder.
 
I also shot hardened copper plated #4 lead buck and it out penetrated all the larger buck shot. So construction figures into the penetration of the buck too.
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Well that is interesting again! Construction definately figures into penetration without a doubt, but i'm surprised that it was such a difference there given the size of shot difference. Sure goes to show.

(your'e SURE you didn't get any cement in that gelatin mix by mistake, right? :D :D :D (JK!) )
 
Might be a good time for the old..."hey I learned something today....there are no absolutes or even quite oftens with many aspects of shooting"

There are way too many variables!

Still confused how slugs out penetrated buckshot in wet newspaper though......
 
Might be a good time for the old..."hey I learned something today....there are no absolutes or even quite oftens with many aspects of shooting"

There are way too many variables!
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Well i'm glad you learned something ;) :p

But while there are variables, there do tend to be strong 'quite oftens' and the like. For example - put a 165 grain 30 cal bullet on target on a deer's sweet spot, and generally it'll go down. 99 out of 100 times that's true. Yes - there will be the odd time when something 'unforseen' happens. But generally - that's what you can expect.

But you're definately right, once the lead leaves the barrel when it comes to bears, there's absolutely no 'guarantees', no matter what you're using. You just gotta go with what you feel comfortable with and hope it works out if the time comes.
 
Foxer said:
Well i'm glad you learned something ;) :p

But while there are variables, there do tend to be strong 'quite oftens' and the like. For example - put a 165 grain 30 cal bullet on target on a deer's sweet spot, and generally it'll go down. 99 out of 100 times that's true. Yes - there will be the odd time when something 'unforseen' happens. But generally - that's what you can expect.

But you're definately right, once the lead leaves the barrel when it comes to bears, there's absolutely no 'guarantees', no matter what you're using. You just gotta go with what you feel comfortable with and hope it works out if the time comes.
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Wow!
 
Omega said:
The huge frontal area on the lead slugs induced rapid expansion and they tore themselves apart and massive expansion equals reduced penetration. The buck looks like it could be loaded and shot again.
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Interesting. Buckshot tended to flatten when shot into paper.

In my tests I've found gel to be much tougher on bullets than actual game.
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Hard to measure that, unless a person can recover all thier bullets from game. I knwo I can't. ;)Mediums are a standard density throughout, game animals aren't, of course.


Maybe a bit of background is in order:)

I used to carry OO or OOO and slugs in shotguns. Then from the experiences I listed above, as well as reading a couple of accounts in Gary Sheltons books (where buckshot was used on a grizzly, hit it in the face, but didn't penetrate the skull) I thought I'd try out buckshot vs slugs- For the purpose of bear defense. I used a 18" barrel cylinder bore shotgun, typical of bear shotguns. I migth have shot some buckshot through a full choke to see how it performed at longer ranges, but I can't recall just now.

I shot a bunch of stuff (listed above) and came to the same conclusions that gary Shelton did- Buckshot isn't reliable for bear defense, and is much less versatile than slugs.

I didn't do exhaustive studies, just shot enough at various "bear defense" ranges to decide that buckshot wasn't a great performer.

Up close it made a pretty good hole, but so did slugs. Also, slugs penetrated much better in dry paper (a hard surface) at close range than buckshot did. Whenever buckshot hit a hard surface, it stopped. Bear skulls and shoulders can be pretty hard, and if you are getting charged by a bear, breaking bone is a good idea.;)

At close range the pattern was tight, but it's not as if a person "didn't have to aim" to make hits wiht the buckshot. If you woudl have missed target with slug, you would have missed with the buckshot.

At about 35 yards (IIRC) the pattern of the buckshot was pretty wide. And it didn't arrive "en masse" the way it seems buckshot needs to do to be really effective. I think I shot once at about 40-50 yards, and put one piece of shot in the target,t he rest in the board around it.

In fact, the only time I saw buckshot work very well on a bear was at pretty close range, black bear, as it stood up in a field, and a farmer shot it in the head. A couple of members on CGN posted that they had successfully used buckshot on black bears, again at close range head shots.

Buckshot probably penetrates well at 10 feet in gelatin (I have never used gelatin but the buck didn't penetrate well at 10 ft in dry paper) but I'd like to see results when moved out to 40-50 yards (about as far as I want an aggressive bear to get to me if I have a choice).

So, I concluded that I'd rather have slugs, since they worked close and far, and while I came up with several instances of buckshot not doing the job on bears, I could find none where slugs didn't work.
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Round balls do not kill like a flat meplated bullet.

Hard wide meplat slug like a Brenneke penetrates and kills and it has now been proven beyond any doubt that hard cast wide meplat bullets penetrate and kill better than round nose bullets same goes for all other rounds be it rifle or shotgun.

Read up on John Linebaugh and/or Ross Siegfreid...

In my defense guns I shoot bullets with the widest meplat available be it Brenneke slugs for a shotgun, hard cast WLNGC's in my 45-70/454 rifles, or 45 Colt/454 Casull WLNGC's in handguns.

Round ball just doesn't create wound channels like wide frontal area meplated hard cast/hard material bullets so how can it possible be a better stopper.

I for one would not trust my life on those little 30 cal balls and I would also never load up with soft material slugs they as Omega's test proved do not penetrate deeply.

Now with that said a guide/outfitter friend of mine who has been a guide for more than 35 years tells me that if he is carrying a shotgun he wants it loaded with 00 buck and will not shoot until the grizzly is within 10 yards.

He goes on to tell you that every charge he has ever had to deal with the grizzly will come to a stop about 10 yards away stand up on it's hind legs posturing that is when he shoots it high in the neck with his 00 loads.

Drops them instantly...
 
Here's one I had bookmarked...I'm sure a Google search would produce numerous others.
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Cool - but, from the very report you quoted...

Slugs

Unlike Birdshot and Buckshot which have multiple projectiles, the slug is a single projectile. Slugs have a higher effective range and can be used where a spreading pattern is not desired. Because of their massive momentum and energy they are also effective against bears. There are several different types of slugs, expanding, non expanding, rifled, and non rifled.
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The slug has massive momentum and energy, because this is an expanding slug the penetration was somewhat restricted to 17.0 inches making it an excellent option for home defense.
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Now - i note the buckshot penetrated to 22.3 inches - but ONLY some pelles did! The rest stopped short of that. So while you may get the odd pellet penetrating that far in gel, apperently not all do. So it's kind of hard to say that buckshot 'penetrates better', considering that only a small amount of the buckshot managed to (probably pellets that actually came out of the gun last, and struck the block after the surface was disturbed. )

Also - i note it's a 2 3/4's inch round using a 1 oz slug. This part didn't surprise me of course, but it's interesting :)

A 1 oz soft lead slug blazing out at approximately 1600 fps yielded some surprising opservations in our ordinance gelatin. What makes the results surprising is when they are compared with those of the reduced recoil loads; the higher velocity of the regular loads (such as this one by winchester) produce less penetration as far more energy is invested in deformation and deflection of the slug.
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This is what they got when they used reduced recoil slugs:

# Range: 3 yards
# Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnumn
# Round: 12 gauge 2� Remington Reduced Recoil 1oz Slug
# Gelatin: 9'x9'x19' 10% ordinance gelatin block
# Measured Average Permenant Cavity Penetration: 30.0 inches (76.2 cm)
# Measured Temporary Stretch Cavity: 1.0 to 15.5 inches (2.5 - 39.4 cm)
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Considerably farther than even the buckshot!

That's to be expected of course, slower bullets penetrate better (to a point.) there's less force deforming them on impact. I suppose the best slug to use (penetration wise) would be a heavier than one ounce slug travelling at a slightly slower speed. Or shoot them from farther than 3 yards :) As near as i can figure based on their results, a remington slugmaster for example would reach the velocity needed to overpenetrate vs the avg buckshot load would be about 10 yards.

Of course, none of this takes into account that we're talking about bears, with an internal skeleton and other features which will affect penetration much differently.

So, it would seem that SOME slugs penetrate far better at short ranges, and all slugs would tend to penetrate better at ranges over 10 - 15 yards (depending on the slug and it's velocity).

Other slugs seem to deform - but again, not all pellets penetrate to the same depth. So.. is that an actually accurate comparison?

It is worth noting this bit tho:

Expanding foster type slugs are also an excellent performer with massive momentum but non expanding or slugs that fail to expand have the capability to over penetrate due to their mass and momentum.
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In any case - interesting subject :) But - besides the point, as the test shows the slug is still the choice to use for bear, the destructive power is considerably higher.
 
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Hey omega - if you ever got a chance to do it again, see if you can get some loads with that copper plated speer buckshot, the 00 stuff. I'd be really interested to see how that did, especially if you could get someone to load it up to the same sort of speed you get slugs coming out at.

I wouldn't mind seeing some of that bismuth hevi shot stuff either, tho i think the copper might do better.
 
Now with that said a guide/outfitter friend of mine who has been a guide for more than 35 years tells me that if he is carrying a shotgun he wants it loaded with 00 buck and will not shoot until the grizzly is within 10 yards.

He goes on to tell you that every charge he has ever had to deal with the grizzly will come to a stop about 10 yards away stand up on it's hind legs posturing that is when he shoots it high in the neck with his 00 loads.
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Most bear experts say that a grizz that stands up on its hind legs will actually not charge and is posing no threat and it just curious. My experience mirrors this!
 
Foxer said:
Cool - but, from the very report you quoted...



And




Now - i note the buckshot penetrated to 22.3 inches - but ONLY some pelles did! The rest stopped short of that. So while you may get the odd pellet penetrating that far in gel, apperently not all do. So it's kind of hard to say that buckshot 'penetrates better', considering that only a small amount of the buckshot managed to (probably pellets that actually came out of the gun last, and struck the block after the surface was disturbed. )

Also - i note it's a 2 3/4's inch round using a 1 oz slug. This part didn't surprise me of course, but it's interesting :)





Considerably farther than even the buckshot!

That's to be expected of course, slower bullets penetrate better (to a point.) there's less force deforming them on impact. I suppose the best slug to use (penetration wise) would be a heavier than one ounce slug travelling at a slightly slower speed. Or shoot them from farther than 3 yards :) As near as i can figure based on their results, a remington slugmaster for example would reach the velocity needed to overpenetrate vs the avg buckshot load would be about 10 yards.

Of course, none of this takes into account that we're talking about bears, with an internal skeleton and other features which will affect penetration much differently.

So, it would seem that SOME slugs penetrate far better at short ranges, and all slugs would tend to penetrate better at ranges over 10 - 15 yards (depending on the slug and it's velocity).

Other slugs seem to deform - but again, not all pellets penetrate to the same depth. So.. is that an actually accurate comparison?

It is worth noting this bit tho:




In any case - interesting subject :) But - besides the point, as the test shows the slug is still the choice to use for bear, the destructive power is considerably higher.
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You do love to argue don't you foxer....I started this portion of the thread by saying buckshot will penetrate a soft medium further than slugs....I think that's been proved in spades yet you insist on arguing....I'm done.

Personally I still prefer slugs for bear defence but am not so daft to ignore penetration studies. How they relate to killing is argueable but the fact they penetrate a soft medium further is not.

Argue on boys...this is getting rediculous!
 
Foxer said:
Which is great - and while that can be useful, i don't think even the fbi or military confuses that with being 'the same as'.
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Well actually yes that is what the detailed specs certify. Ballistic gelatin came about after shooting pig cadavers. Nobody thinks for one second that gel will react exactly the same as a body simply because bullets in bodies don't react the same every time either. The gel is the best medium for predicting bullet performance.
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Foxer said:
Well THAT's no good. Can't have them breaking apart. Thats why i wondered how the brenneke's would fare, they're much harder.
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Better of course as the Hevishot did. But that wasn't the point that I was trying to make. Big lead slugs with wide flat meplats do not automatically out penetrate everything.
 
Foxer said:
Hey omega - if you ever got a chance to do it again, see if you can get some loads with that copper plated speer buckshot, the 00 stuff. I'd be really interested to see how that did, especially if you could get someone to load it up to the same sort of speed you get slugs coming out at.

I wouldn't mind seeing some of that bismuth hevi shot stuff either, tho i think the copper might do better.
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There isn't a week goes by that I'm not shooting something into the gel. There are so very many variables involved that affect outcome it can make your head swim!:D
I don't load shotgun so it would be factory or nothing in that department.
 
sheephunter said:
Most bear experts say that a grizz that stands up on its hind legs will actually not charge and is posing no threat and it just curious. My experience mirrors this!
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I tend to agree, a bear that stops his approach and stands on his hind legs, wants to see better and isn't much of a threat. If I shot every time under similar circumstances I'd have a dump truck full of bears by now. Having said that, it's not up to me to second guess anyone else, and if you believe that you are in imminent danger from a bear you need to proceed as you believe is prudent.

As to the matter of buckshot on game, it's a pretty poor performer, and depends on the "rat hole effect" of tissue destruction to get the job done. Consider a flat nosed slug impacting at super-sonic velocity, the resulting wound volume, and the ability of the solid slug to break big bones and continue to penetrate. Each individual pellet has little energy or momentum and by the time that hair and a thick hide has been defeated, much of the velocity has been lost. We are only talking about a few pellets here, not a hundred. I would only use shot where the threat of penetration could endanger other people. It is at its best when the range is close and the pattern tight, because the tissue damage is more focused to a small area. If the range is short and the pattern tight, buckshot is no easier to hit with than a slug, so why use it when over penetration is not an issue?
 
You do love to argue don't you foxer....I started this portion of the thread by saying buckshot will penetrate a soft medium further than slugs....I think that's been proved in spades yet you insist on arguing....I'm done.
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Now now - don't start getting frustrated or anything, this is a 'discussion' forum after all. If you didn't like to discuss this stuff yourself you'd never have brought up the whole 'penetration' question in the first place.
Personally I still prefer slugs for bear defence but am not so daft to ignore penetration studies. How they relate to killing is argueable but the fact they penetrate a soft medium further is not.
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Well i don't know as i'd call you daft :) but you DID ignore the portion of that report that you posted that mentioned that when teh slugs are fired at speeds similar to the speed of the buckshot (managed recoil slugs) they actually penetrated 30 percent FURTHER than the 'average' of the buckshot.

So, we can safely say that when it's an apples to apples comparison, slugs do in fact penetrate FAR better than buckshot.

That's from the report YOU quoted. And we can also see from some of the stuff I and others posted that as the range increases and velocities slow, slugs consistantly out perform buckshot for penetration.

So really - slugs DO penetrate better, there is just a point at which the velocity is high enough that the slugs will not properly survive the impact with the medium.

By your own posted reports - slugs penetrate better. Provided they're kept to speeds similar to the buckshot.

Argue on boys...this is getting rediculous!
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I don't think it's ridiculous :) - it's interesting to discuss this stuff. I mean, we all know slugs are better for bears, we could have just left it there but look at all the interesting stuff that came out as a result of discussing the tiny details. I had no idea that copper coated pellets for example would perform as well as omega's report. It's just interesting stuff.

AND - it IS interesting to note that many types of slugs won't properly survive impacts at speeds around 1600 fps. That will probably effect my choice in slugs (tho i'm thinking of just getting into casting my own.)

Ya gotta have fun with this stuff bud, or we'd never have anything to talk about :D
 
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