Relative Accuracy of .303 and .30-06 MILSURPs

[purple]

I thought I'd offer results of shooting a variety of .303 and .30-06 MILSURP rifles for general info. Results are compliled from a range log which I have maintained over the past 14 yrs. I selected these types of rifles based on the following common criteria to establish an equivalent baseline for comparison:
1.At least 3 rifles of each type used to rule out unusually accurate or inaccurate rifles based on results with a single rifle of any type
2. All results reflect 3 shot groups off the bench @ 100 yds
3. Only handloads used to rule out MILSURP ammo of marginal accuracy.Handloads include a variety of mostly match grade bullets and various propellants.
4. All rifles in servicable,as issued condition as per MILSPEC-sound unworn bores and crowns,proper bedding,headspace,trigger pulls within allowances,and issue aperture sights ( 5 of 6 M1903 Springfields shot with peep sight in rear leaf,1 M1903A3 used)
5.Each rifle included in sample fired a minimum of 20x 3 shot groups
6. Scoped sniper variants are not included
Results are as follows:
Type/# of rifles, # of 3 shot groups, Avg group size, % of gps less than 2 "
M1903 Springfield/6, 316, 1.98", 59.8%

M1917 Enfield/3, 74, 2.68", 31%

M1 Garand/4, 159, 2.1", 42.7%

No4 Lee Enfield/6, 259, 3", 25.8%

My results indicate the most accurate of these four types to be the M1903 Springfield,then the M1 Garand,then the M1917 Enfield,and lastly the No4 Lee-Enfield.
Details of the most accurate rifle of each type are as follows:
M1903 Springfield: Avg group size-1.73",percentage of groups less than 2"-72%.Rifle is a 1942 M1903 Remington with 9/43 replacement barrel
M1 Garand: Avg group size-1.81",percentage of groups less than 2 "-62%.Rifle is a 1955 Springfield M1 Garand with 2/49 replacement barrel
M1917 Enfield: Avg goup size-2.44",percentage of groups less than 2"-34.3%
Rifle is a 1918 Eddystone with original 10/18 barrel
No4 Lee-Enfield: Avg group size-2.85",percentage of groups less than 2 "-30%. Rifle is a 1950 Long Branch with original barrel.

The foregoing results are based on a total of 808 3 shot groups (2424 rounds)and reflect what accuracy expectations should be with these four types of MILSURP rifles.As a basis for comparison, the accuracy standard required of a No 4 Lee-Enfield scoped Sniper rifle @ 100 yds was a 5 shot 3 inch group (per Cdn Army EMEI) with service ammo.

 

[Riflechair]

Very Interesting
Thank you for sharing your research data

 

[Dave_F]

This is great data. Thanks so much for sharing this.

 

[polaris]

data

very well done and interesting...
you must be extremly well organized doing this over so many years...
( i would have lost track after a month or so, lol )
do you, by any chance have some Mauser Data?
cheers

 

[louthepou]

Very thorough, thanks, really this is great info!

Lou

 

[JacquesT]

Interesting indeed,

All acceptable results considering you varied the projectile and propellant (and I assume the charge of the reloads). Reloads bring about so many variables.

I would be curious to see the results with the mil spec ammo for which the rifle were design for (or vice versa).

I kept a similar records on microsoft excell years ago, a great way to see where you are going when using many rifles and reloads.

My conclusion...these rifles maintained combat accruacy with a variety of reloads!

Cheers

 

[Gibson]

Thank's for the info verry good.

 

[purple]

As with any rifle these 19 pieces showed a preference for various bullets, propellants,and charges,but I think the results are still relative.IMR 4064 is a consistently superior performer in .30-06 loads featuring various 150,165,168 and 173gr bullets,with IMR 4895 almost as good.IMR 4320 is excellent in .30-06 bolt rifles with 165,168,and 173gr bullets,but avoid using it in the Garand as it generates the wrong gas port pressure(too slow burning). .303 loads using 174 and 180gr bullets do well with any of IMR 4064,Re 15,IMR 4350,Varget,H414 and W760.Good military ball is next to impossible to find for the .30-06 and the last good ball ammo that I found for the .303 is FN 87 ball.No MILSURP Mauser data available,but I have done extensive load development for the 7x57 Mauser in a M98 sporter as well as 2 Rem M700s.

 

[cantom]

As with any rifle these 19 pieces showed a preference for various bullets, propellants,and charges,but I think the results are still relative.IMR 4064 is a consistently superior performer in .30-06 loads featuring various 150,165,168 and 173gr bullets,with IMR 4895 almost as good.IMR 4320 is excellent in .30-06 bolt rifles with 165,168,and 173gr bullets,but avoid using it in the Garand as it generates the wrong gas port pressure(too slow burning). .303 loads using 174 and 180gr bullets do well with any of IMR 4064,Re 15,IMR 4350,Varget,H414 and W760.Good military ball is next to impossible to find for the .30-06 and the last good ball ammo that I found for the .303 is FN 87 ball.No MILSURP Mauser data available,but I have done extensive load development for the 7x57 Mauser in a M98 sporter as well as 2 Rem M700s.

My gunsmith indicated a dislike for Enfields...he considers them inaccurate vs other rifles...those results tend to back that up a bit...

Looks like the Americans know how to make an accurate rifle.

 

[Gibbs505]

Interesting, however I note that you had three 30.06 shooters and only one 303 shooter. Pity that you could not have inculded a P 1914 and a SMLE in the mix!

 

[purple]

I have similar data for a SMLE MkIII and a P14.These are one of a kind and,as I indicated, I selected data on at least 3 of a particular rifle type in order not to base any conclusions on a single rifle.A lot of my P14 shooting was done with a scope mounted in an S&K mount so I don't consider that a valid comparison against a MILSURP in issue condition.My BSA Mk III records show an average group size of 3.2" with 30% of groups running 2" or less-just a tad better than the least accurate of six No4s in my sample.As a comparison,an issue Finnish M27 Mosin-Nagant shows an average group size of 2" with 57% of groups running 2" or less.

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

The interesting part of your study is each of those rifles have rear aperature sights, assuming your Springfield doesn't have its sight on the barrel like a Mauser. A well aimed rifle will be more consistent, almost regardless of the cartridge. A good shooter can do everything to hold a lesser rifle on the target, but there is no compensating for bad shooting.

Since about 2000, more milsurp matches in Eastern Ontario have been won with No.4s and Garands than anything else. These are the rifles chosen by the shooters who can shoot, as opposed to guys who show up with whatever. Now, we have a distinct tone of participation and having a match experience versus all out point-counting competition. Run what you brung, as long as it fits within the pre 1945 rules. If any of the usual suspects are 1 or 2 or 3 in the end, so what?

 

[BadgerDog]

Thanks purple...

We just added a new shooting video to the "The Screening Room" (click here)http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=46.

1,000 Yard Shooting (1942 91/30 Mosin Nagant Sniper Rifle & M1D Garand Sniper Rifle) (click here)http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=3543

I'm not a handloader, but after seeing the videos of this young fella shooting his Garand and 91/30 PU Mosin Nagant snipers out to 1,000 yards at an 18" steel plate, it left me impressed. I always wondered how far one could push the accuracy of these old girls.

Regards,
Badger

 

[Gard]

Lee Enfield in third? BLASPHEMY!

 

[brotherjack]

Lee Enfield in third? BLASPHEMY!

That's what I was going to say - of the three Lee's I've owned in my life, so long as I didn't over-head the barrel, every one of them would shoot right down around 1" at 100 meters!!!! The most accurate centerfire gun I own right at this moment is a Lee Enfield, which will outshoot my Savage, my Kimber, etc...

 

[purple]

The No4 is a sentimental favourite of mine and I just wish that 1 out of the 6 rifles in my records would have at least equalled one of my 1903 Springfields.I just completed a re-test of 2 Long Branches with very nice barrels after stripping them down and checking all points of the bedding.I did need to shim one forend to restore the required tension between the sear lugs and the butt socket.After shooting 31 x 3 shot groups with them using the 174gr Sierra Match and 174gr Hornady FMJBT over Re 15,Varget,H414 and IMR4064 they again averaged 3 inches @ 100 yds. I know the accuracy difference between my Enfields and the other rifles is'nt in my bench technique or the quality of my handloads.I'm thinking about testing one with a center bedded laminated forend that I got out of the stash of an old Bisley shooter. I have had experience with 2 No4s which were consistent MOA shooters.Both were scoped sporters,the Parker Hale types with a shortened barrel.I sold one over 20 yrs ago.The other belongs to one of my young hunting pals.It will always shoot to MOA with the 180gr Speer bullet over either H414 or W760.

 

[Gibbs505]

There is an old saying: The Germans built a hunting rifle; the Americians built a target rifle; the British built a battle rifle.

 

[Alonzo]

There is an old saying: The Germans built a hunting rifle; the Americians built a target rifle; the British built a battle rifle.

VERY WELL PUT!!!

Thanks for Purple for all the data...very interesting, infomrative, and not surprising at all.
Thanks for all your work.
Cheers

 

[Riflechair]

Most accurate milsurp I've ever owned was the the M96 Mauser 6.5X55. However I still prefer a CNo4Mk1* anyday. I've shot enfield with great success all the way out to 500 metres and even outshot our boys with their C7A1's Prone Unsupported.

 

[p-17]

I agree that these results are interesting, but they probably speak more to the (poor) quality of the original military barrels than anything else. I don't think it's a coincidence that your best groups came from rifles fitted with replacement barrels.

Tell you what: take a 1917 Enfield and put a brand-new, match quality barrel on it and cut the chamber with a tight reamer, leaving all else the same, and you will be astonished by the results. Trust me on that. I have some target rifles built around '17s that often shoot in the .2s for five shots, and almost always better than the .5s (if I do my part and watch the wind).

The .303s would likely have even more improvement because the dimensions of those barrels -- be it a P-14 or one of the Lee-Enfields -- are all over the map. You put a new .311 barrel on one of those rifles, cut the chamber with a match reamer, and I'll bet you'll get results that make you sit up and take notice.

The biggest reason why the Lee Enfields are not as accurate as the other rifles in your collection is likely because of bore dimensions, which, as mentioned, were all over the map during the war years, and rarely correspond with modern .311 bullets. The second reason is probably because of the levels of slop that were intentionally engineered into the Lee-Enfield military rifles to ensure that they fed reliably, even after sitting in muddy trenches for four years. Those military chambers were kept on the loose side intentionally for this very reason. And this is one of the reasons why the SMLE ruled the roost in the trenches of WWI.

When it comes to rifles, barrel quality and uniformity relative to the diameter of the bullet being fired is one of the greatest contributors (or detractors) to accuracy.