- Location
- Vancouver Island BC
12 g vs 45-70
- Thread starter Teapot
- Start date
- Location
- Vancouver Island BC
I have done similar tests over the years with 12 gauge and 45-70 rounds,the results echo what Ben has posted.
For deer and bear the 12 gauge is sufficient, but for moose and big game it falls far behind the 45-70.
I ask you the same question I asked Ben....have you done it with slugs designed for these bigger game animals? Have you done it with sabots and high tech bullets travelling 2,100 fps? I suspect the answer is no. I'm not making a case for the 12 gauge over the 45/70 as I love my 45/70 but some of you guys need to get your head out of the sand and realize that ammo manufacturers are making innovations every day. These new slugs perform as advertsed! This is the year 2008 and as scary as this is, there are new things out there....I'm just pointing them out.
If wrapping your antiquated testing around you like a warm blanket somehow makes you feel better far be it for me to criticize but at least comment on the technology at hand and not some 100 year old technolgy!
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I was never a fan of varmint bullets in .45 caliber and the only thing worse than a light weight .45 is a fast light weight .45. If you want to shoot .45's put some weight in the bullet, load it to rifle pressures and then you've got something. .45 caliber rifles aren't that new a concept either, and the use a a fast varmint bullet in a shotgun limits it's usefulness rather than enhances it.
Boomer there you go blowing everything way out of proportaion again to try and make your faltering point of view.....lets stick to the facts...k
The Barnes is hardly a varmint bullet....and 438 grains is hardly a light-weight. Even the Winchester at 300 grains is still a substantial bullet....much heavier than the .45 cals I push out of my muzzleloader at similar speeds and have killed nearly everything that walks in North America. I expected more from you other than some some rediculous reference that had no base in fact........
I've done a ton of shooting with these new slugs and a ton of testing and they work.......don't let that scare you. No one is going to take your 45/70 away. These slugs are just a very effective alternative for those that can't use centrefires. The fact that they outperform some centrefire calibres is just a coincidence....not a comminusist plot to overthrow the the 45/70 gang.
The Barnes is hardly a varmint bullet....and 438 grains is hardly a light-weight. Even the Winchester at 300 grains is still a substantial bullet....much heavier than the .45 cals I push out of my muzzleloader at similar speeds and have killed nearly everything that walks in North America. I expected more from you other than some some rediculous reference that had no base in fact........
I've done a ton of shooting with these new slugs and a ton of testing and they work.......don't let that scare you. No one is going to take your 45/70 away. These slugs are just a very effective alternative for those that can't use centrefires. The fact that they outperform some centrefire calibres is just a coincidence....not a comminusist plot to overthrow the the 45/70 gang.
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- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I'll go with the communist plot!
But being a bolt gun fan a .458 of some flavour is more likely to be in my repertoire than a .45/70. Still light bullets suck, and the Barnes bullet you refer to, if I'm thinking of the right one, is purpose built for normal 12 gauge velocity, so it might perform well at 1600, but maybe is a little delicate for 2100 from a purpose built 12 gauge rifle.
I'll go with the communist plot!
Still light bullets suck, and the Barnes bullet you refer to, if I'm thinking of the right one, is purpose built for normal 12 gauge velocity, so it might perform well at 1600, but maybe is a little delicate for 2100 from a purpose built 12 gauge rifle.
Ya Boomer, I certain Federal never took any of that into account and I'm certain Barnes never thought to ask how fast their new bullet was going to be pushed. And I'm sure no one thought to test it at the speeds being shot. Come on Boomer....you aren't talking out your mouth any more. Just face it, these slugs are new, they are purpose designed and you just possibly learned something today or should we return once again to the reductum ad absurdum form of debate?
Why is anything new so frightening to some people here?
- Location
- Vancouver Island BC
sheephunter
I have seen many posts about the 45-70 being used very successfully on the big five in Africa.....how many shotgun shooters can say the same.?
The 12 gauge is an awesome killer, but still doesn't have the reach or power of the 45-70 no matter what's being chucked out of them.
I have seen many posts about the 45-70 being used very successfully on the big five in Africa.....how many shotgun shooters can say the same.?
The 12 gauge is an awesome killer, but still doesn't have the reach or power of the 45-70 no matter what's being chucked out of them.
Not many, but I do recall reading on the Brenneke website how they used thier slugs on Hippo, Elephant, Buffalo, etc. had pics and everything!
I don't own a 45/70 and probably never would, but I'd probably pick one over a slug gun, even with the new wonder slugs.
Why? Wonder slugs are expensive and not widely available, whereas you can get or make proper 45/70 bullets easily, for not too much money, which means you will pracitce more with your chosen load.
Not many, but I do recall reading on the Brenneke website how they used thier slugs on Hippo, Elephant, Buffalo, etc. had pics and everything!
I don't own a 45/70 and probably never would, but I'd probably pick one over a slug gun, even with the new wonder slugs.
Why? Wonder slugs are expensive and not widely available, whereas you can get or make proper 45/70 bullets easily, for not too much money, which means you will pracitce more with your chosen load.
I was about to ask about the pricing and availablity of these new tech projectiles. Not to mention my 45/70 is shorter than any rifled 12 gauge.
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
"Let's talk a .45 cal/300 grain bullet doing 2100 fps from a 12 gauge and then tell me it's not in the .45/70 range"
A slug gun and new slugs may be fine for a deer in close quarters, but that is where the similarities end.
350-GR WOODLEIGH WELD-CORE JSP AT 2000-FPS
350 gr. J.F.N. (2150 fps / M.E. 3592 ft. lbs.)
300gr. Speer Uni Core @ 2350 fps (3678 ft. lbs.)
405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)
430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)
Nosler Partition 300 gr 2367 fps 3733 ft lbs
A slug gun and new slugs may be fine for a deer in close quarters, but that is where the similarities end.
350-GR WOODLEIGH WELD-CORE JSP AT 2000-FPS
350 gr. J.F.N. (2150 fps / M.E. 3592 ft. lbs.)
300gr. Speer Uni Core @ 2350 fps (3678 ft. lbs.)
405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)
430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)
Nosler Partition 300 gr 2367 fps 3733 ft lbs
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
Careful. The 45/70 Gods are watching.
I'm beginning to think that these new shotgun slugs must also come with blinders.
I'm beginning to think that these new shotgun slugs must also come with blinders.
And show me one place where I criticized the 45/70.....I have one and I really enjoy it. All I criticized was your antiquated testing and inability to consider that there have indeed been advancements in 12 gauge slugs in the past hundred years.
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Why is it when someone brings some information forward about new technolgy that they are instantly against something else.......as I've said many times, I love all things that go bang but I'm not so closed minded as to ignore new advancements either. I don't see this as one versus the other all.....just some facts about 12 gauge slugs that obviously many were unaware of. I'll let you crawl back in your cave now!
I was about to ask about the pricing and availablity of these new tech projectiles. Not to mention my 45/70 is shorter than any rifled 12 gauge.
Not sure what 45/70 you are shooting but there are some darned short 12 gauges out there. The other great thing is that barrel length has negligible effect on velocity in 12 gauge but considerable effect with the .45/70....something to consider if length is an important factor to you!
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Ah perfect more reductum ad absurdum.
Considering some of these new super slugs have been on the market for less than a year, I can see why they may not have been on many Big 5 safaris. Remember, I said these were new!
Anyhow, who'd want to do a big 5 safari with a shotgun....that's a classic centrefire hunt. I'm not aware of any special regulation limiting big 5 hunts to shotguns...are you? These slugs are designed for a specific niche market and will never enjoy wide spread popularity despite the fact that they are well up to the task. I can't see myself ever using one unless forced to by regulation but I have no doubt it would get the job done at ranges to 200 yards.
- Location
- Vancouver Island BC
I tested the 18.5 inch guide gun against the 1895 with a 22 inch barrel,I got 1630 fps with the gg and 1708 with the 1895.Both used the same load and shot over the same chronograph.
A difference of 78 fps, not substantial or considerable.
Ya, that sounds about right.......you can count on 20-25 fps loss per inch of barrel with lower powder volume loads like that.
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