Sniper calibres?

[Curt]

As to the .223 the .308 puts twice or more kinetic energy on the target at any given range. When a police sniper fires, they want to make sure the target is down at any given engagement range. So bigger works out better.[/QUOTE]

I stated that as well, the police want the suspect down.

 

[rem338win]

I've never heard of civilian police snipers using cannons like these. Most police engagements occur inside 100 yards.

Then why don't the police uses .223 ??

223 is much more likely to wound on an off shot.
308 is going to hit you so much harder you won't be popping back up.

Up to and including 2005, the Remington "700 Police" in 223 was
produced in greater numbers than "700 Police" in 308.

I may be wrong, but I suspect that Remmy sells more police models through dealers than to police departments etc.

They want the guys to train and intimately know one gun. The .223 cannot meet all of the application the .308 does. I not heard of a serious PD special tactics unit that uses a factory rifle for their precision engagement rifle, so that would be the civilian market talking.

The City of Edmonton has 50 BMG rifles. They shoot them at our range.

Uh, not for service they do not. And realistically there is no need for a municipal force (at least the size of Edmonton) to have a rifle that engages that far (though the coolness factor of that job would go up significantly). Zoo York, or other cities that size that have been threatened or attacked by terrorists in the past could likely justify it.

 

[EC]

They want the guys to train and intimately know one gun. The .223 cannot meet all of the application the .308 does. I not heard of a serious PD special tactics unit that uses a factory rifle for their precision engagement rifle, so that would be the civilian market talking.



Uh, not for service they do not. And realistically there is no need for a municipal force (at least the size of Edmonton) to have a rifle that engages that far (though the coolness factor of that job would go up significantly). Zoo York, or other cities that size that have been threatened or attacked by terrorists in the past could likely justify it.

What do you mean by not for service. By your statement shows you have little knowkedge of what you are talking about. It's not about engagement distances or attacks by terrorists, its about terminal ballistics. Edmonton has a 50 not for engaging personel, the 223 and 308 do just fine for that, but for such things as disabling vehicles at gun/barricaded man calls, ever tried shooting a 308 through cockpit glass, it just doesn't work...A recommendation of a fatality inquiry not too too long ago was the capability to disable vehicles with such things as a 50 cal...Shooting tires etc does not disable a vehicle, walking up to a vehicle in an attempt to disable it with a gun man in a residence puts people at risk... Try shooting an engine block with a 308, even a 338 will not do the the trick immediately...get my drift, it has nothing to do with engagement distances, coolness factors or terrorist attacks.

 

[XXXXX]

It would make sense to me that any city with a SWAT team would/should/does have a .50 bmg for uses such as disabling equipment and the likes.

 

[lineofsight]

Remington's making a killing!

no, no, no, remember guns dont kill

 

[punkrockboy]

It would make sense to me that any city with a SWAT team would/should/does have a .50 bmg for uses such as disabling equipment and the likes.

Its true....lots of municipal forces are getting .50s for vehicle disabling capabilities, its got nothing to do with picking a person off at 2000+ meters
(ironically, Rob Furlong, the sniper that made the record distance kill in afghan is an edmonton police officer, so edmonton actually does have a person capable of such shots)

 

[rem338win]

What do you mean by not for service. By your statement shows you have little knowkedge of what you are talking about. It's not about engagement distances or attacks by terrorists, its about terminal ballistics. Edmonton has a 50 not for engaging personel, the 223 and 308 do just fine for that, but for such things as disabling vehicles at gun/barricaded man calls, ever tried shooting a 308 through cockpit glass, it just doesn't work...A recommendation of a fatality inquiry not too too long ago was the capability to disable vehicles with such things as a 50 cal...Shooting tires etc does not disable a vehicle, walking up to a vehicle in an attempt to disable it with a gun man in a residence puts people at risk... Try shooting an engine block with a 308, even a 338 will not do the the trick immediately...get my drift, it has nothing to do with engagement distances, coolness factors or terrorist attacks.

No Sh#t. Thanks Sherlock, for stating the obvious. The fact is I just minutes ago had a conversation (it was a mere question at the end of a conversation) that confirmed the fact that EPS does not have a 50 BMG as a weapon to be used in service. Anyone else out there can easily confirm that too.
They have other less concerning equipment for taking care of the situations you have provided. Drift this genius, what is an EPM, or a PITS maneuver? Then again you never know when you might need to stop a tank in down town Edmonton, especially with the CF base so close and all
If I implied engagment(?) distances in my post I apologize, but apparently someone needs to put his little man away when talking about guns on computers, and cut down on the hyped US television. And thanks for the bold gooder lesson in properly English highlighted above.

It would make sense to me that any city with a SWAT team would/should/does have a .50 bmg for uses such as disabling equipment and the likes.

Hmmm...it would be handy, but in urban settings collateral dammage is an issue, and popping 800gr penetrators at engine blocks isn't going to pass the brass in most cities. Again there are other tactics and devices that can be used that pose less concern for Joe Public in the background.

But hey guys if you want to believe that stuff they show in SWAT and Sniper movies feel free, and ignore my response.

 

[rem338win]

What do you mean by not for service. By your statement shows you have little knowkedge of what you are talking about. It's not about engagement distances or attacks by terrorists, its about terminal ballistics. Edmonton has a 50 not for engaging personel, the 223 and 308 do just fine for that, but for such things as disabling vehicles at gun/barricaded man calls, ever tried shooting a 308 through cockpit glass, it just doesn't work...A recommendation of a fatality inquiry not too too long ago was the capability to disable vehicles with such things as a 50 cal...Shooting tires etc does not disable a vehicle, walking up to a vehicle in an attempt to disable it with a gun man in a residence puts people at risk... Try shooting an engine block with a 308, even a 338 will not do the the trick immediately...get my drift, it has nothing to do with engagement distances, coolness factors or terrorist attacks.

No Sh#t. Thanks Sherlock, for stating the obvious. The fact is I just minutes ago had a conversation (it was a mere question at the end of a conversation) that confirmed the fact that EPS does not have a 50 BMG as a weapon to be used in service. Anyone else out there can easily confirm that too.
They have other less concerning equipment for taking care of the situations you have provided. Drift this genius, what is an EPM, or a PITS maneuver? Then again you never know when you might need to stop a tank in down town Edmonton, especially with the CF base so close and all
If I implied engagment(?) distances only in my post I apologize, but apparently someone needs to put his little man away when talking about guns on computers, and cut down on the hyped US television. And thanks for the bold gooder lesson in properly English highlighted above. Next time you go about trying to insult someones knowledge base, make sure your retort is impeccable, or will be thrown back at you. Enjoy your firearms freely, I do.

It would make sense to me that any city with a SWAT team would/should/does have a .50 bmg for uses such as disabling equipment and the likes.

Hmmm...it would be handy, but in urban settings collateral dammage is an issue, and popping 800gr penetrators at engine blocks isn't going to pass the brass in most cities. Again there are other tactics and devices that can be used that pose less concern for Joe Public in the background.

But hey guys if you want to believe that stuff they show in SWAT and Sniper movies feel free, and ignore my response.

 

[EC]

No Sh#t. Thanks Sherlock, for stating the obvious. The fact is I just minutes ago had a conversation (it was a mere question at the end of a conversation) that confirmed the fact that EPS does not have a 50 BMG as a weapon to be used in service. Anyone else out there can easily confirm that too.
They have other less concerning equipment for taking care of the situations you have provided. Drift this genius, what is an EPM, or a PITS maneuver? Then again you never know when you might need to stop a tank in down town Edmonton, especially with the CF base so close and all
If I implied engagment(?) distances only in my post I apologize, but apparently someone needs to put his little man away when talking about guns on computers, and cut down on the hyped US television. And thanks for the bold gooder lesson in properly English highlighted above. Next time you go about trying to insult someones knowledge base, make sure your retort is impeccable, or will be thrown back at you. Enjoy your firearms freely, I do.



Hmmm...it would be handy, but in urban settings collateral dammage is an issue, and popping 800gr penetrators at engine blocks isn't going to pass the brass in most cities. Again there are other tactics and devices that can be used that pose less concern for Joe Public in the background.

But hey guys if you want to believe that stuff they show in SWAT and Sniper movies feel free, and ignore my response.

PM Sent enough said.

 

[rem338win]

PM Sent enough said.

Returned, and you are quite right.

 

[EC]

Drift this genius, what is an EPM, or a PITS maneuver? Then again you never know when you might need to stop a tank in down town Edmonton, especially with the CF base so close and all
If I implied engagment(?) distances only in my post I apologize, but apparently someone needs to put his little man away when talking about guns on computers, and cut down on the hyped US television. And thanks for the bold gooder lesson in properly English highlighted above. Next time you go about trying to insult someones knowledge base, make sure your retort is impeccable, or will be thrown back at you. Enjoy your firearms freely, I do.



Hmmm...it would be handy, but in urban settings collateral dammage is an issue, and popping 800gr penetrators at engine blocks isn't going to pass the brass in most cities. Again there are other tactics and devices that can be used that pose less concern for Joe Public in the background.

But hey guys if you want to believe that stuff they show in SWAT and Sniper movies feel free, and ignore my response.

Drift this genius, I know what a PIT manouever is, it utilized for immobilizing vehicles in motion, not a parked vehicle in a driveway or roadside...I guess you never heard of a breakout plan for a barricaded man call...Collateral damage? I think you watch too much tv regarding this. Having conducted penetration tests on engine blocks with a 50 cal I can say with 756 gr AP, not 800 gr that it is not as devastating as you think and more than not requires more than one round. You are basing your experience on? Enlighten us on the other tactics and devices that pose less concern for Joe Public in the background, what about the risk to the officer approaching the vehicle to employ/deploy such tactics and devices.

 

[rem338win]

Drift this genius, I know what a PIT manouever is, it utilized for immobilizing vehicles in motion, not a parked vehicle in a driveway or roadside...I guess you never heard of a breakout plan for a barricaded man call...Collateral damage? I think you watch too much tv regarding this. Having conducted penetration tests on engine blocks with a 50 cal I can say with 756 gr AP, not 800 gr that it is not as devastating as you think and more than not requires more than one round. You are basing your experience on? Enlighten us on the other tactics and devices that pose less concern for Joe Public in the background, what about the risk to the officer approaching the vehicle to employ/deploy such tactics and devices.

OK, I thought you had said enough? I thought you didn't want a pissing contest? Shake your head and head back to Blue Line where the other WOGS hang out. What an excellent canidate for the ignore list.

 

[rem338win]

And back to the topic, instead of ignorant egos.

 

[mackillan]

Why is the .308 used rather than a 7mm mag, 300 win mag or 257 weatherby mag?

 

[Steve David]

Durham Regional Police has a whole fleet of AI's in both .308win and .338LM, topped with S&B I think 20-30 of each, n ot sure of the exact nujmber, that are carried at all times by the designated shooters. They also have 4 Barrett M82 rifles topped with Nightforce. These are for the NSRT.

 

[peterdobson]

Gee Steve, a factual response! Some also have fifties, but i already said that.

Regards,

Peter

 

[rat-7]

This is just my opinion and I could be wrong but here it goes...... .308 has been adopted by many police forces as the sniper round because it is a proven round for both accuracy and stopping power in the military theater, the .223 on the other hand while it can acheive accuracy was a round designed to cut weight in military assualt rifles when the ablity to fire more rounds became more important then firing good ones. It was far easier for police forces to adopt the knowledge gained from the military then to try and invent a round that works best in an urban setting. Will a .223 work as a sniper round.....yes. Does the .308 have a better history of one shot stopping power then a .223.......yes. This is one of those questions where it easy to make good arguements on both sides. In my opinion and experiance a .50bmg should never be used in an urban setting as there is far to much risk for colateral damage but it never hurts to cover all options it your budget allows for it.
Some U.S. police agencies has began trials testing .243 and a few other 6.5mm rounds for use as well not to mention the rounds used by other countries (7.62x54r for example) so its becoming not just a .223 vs. .308 arguement anymore.
Good points on both sides and no ones can really say who's right as both rounds are both range and battle proven. Sadly it is becoming less important as fewer and fewer police officers are being trained and having access to rifles. Now it is mostly the ERT and SWAT personal and I believe that it should be up to the member pulling the trigger as to what will make them the most confident when it comes to the one shot needed. They have been trained by the best and should know what is needed for whatever shot they need to take.

 

[Mystic Precision]

In the US, I see that other bullets besides FMJ's are allowed for LE use.

Is this true in Canada? If yes, the 223 will make a superb one shot stopper at typical urban distances with far lower chance of overpenetration then a 308. Then an AR would make a very interesting option for faster follow up shots.

They certainly are increasingly visible in the US.

mackillan, LE is not in the ballistics game. They typically use proven tech and that is usually determined by the larger national forces - for better or worse.

Considering the debates and debacles that happen at that level, maybe they aren't gun nuts either?

Yes, as gun nuts, we can come up with a gazzillion options to cover any and all possibilities. The average LE member doesn't even shoot his firearms for fun/practise.

To me it is ironic, that the people which may need a firearm to do their job/stay alive are just as likely to not like/use that device in the first place.

I have had the pleasure of helping out at some RCMP HG qualifications when they switched to pistols. For the most part, I was unimpressed with their shooting. Maybe it was the orig 9mm S&W's but that target is huge and the distances are short.

After the testing, I had a chance to blast away with my Ruger 22 (only HG at the time). I would have qualified with a near perfect score.

Some officers were going to repeat...and not for the first time.

Jerry

 

[horseman2]

While practising with the PPCLI snipers, I was getting scores of 1 and 2 for head shots, while they were getting 4's and 5's for gut shots. It takes 4 - 6 people to get a wounded soldier out of the field; None for a dead one. in a police scenario the woulded still present a threat and the dead ones don't.

 

[mackattack]

In the US, I see that other bullets besides FMJ's are allowed for LE use.

Is this true in Canada? If yes, the 223 will make a superb one shot stopper at typical urban distances with far lower chance of overpenetration then a 308. Then an AR would make a very interesting option for faster follow up shots.

They certainly are increasingly visible in the US.

mackillan, LE is not in the ballistics game. They typically use proven tech and that is usually determined by the larger national forces - for better or worse.

Considering the debates and debacles that happen at that level, maybe they aren't gun nuts either?

Yes, as gun nuts, we can come up with a gazzillion options to cover any and all possibilities. The average LE member doesn't even shoot his firearms for fun/practise.

To me it is ironic, that the people which may need a firearm to do their job/stay alive are just as likely to not like/use that device in the first place.

I have had the pleasure of helping out at some RCMP HG qualifications when they switched to pistols. For the most part, I was unimpressed with their shooting. Maybe it was the orig 9mm S&W's but that target is huge and the distances are short.

After the testing, I had a chance to blast away with my Ruger 22 (only HG at the time). I would have qualified with a near perfect score.

Some officers were going to repeat...and not for the first time.

Jerry

The first part is interesting, from someone in the know. What type of factory bullet would you suggest for the .223 then for this application? Thx.