Hunting with FMJ's in Ontario and Quebec

My only question would be......Why the #### do you want to add MORE laws?!?!? ESPECIALLY here in ON? You are in QC right?
A: Why do you give a #### about laws here in ON,
B: Instead of wasting it on a non-problem, why don't you use your friends "influence" to do something thant may actually usefull instead of forcing more "common sense" down peoples throats?...like maybe bringing back handgun hunting, introducing an open season on Cormorants, or intrducing a cull on seagulls or getting rid of the assenine caliber limitations in the south (you can hunt deer with a 25/06, but a 45/70 or 44 mag is "too dangerous at long distances"....something that actually MATTERS.
 
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Well, I guess we actually give a sh1t about big game potentially being shot by FMJ's.

You suggest that I should care about "southern laws" instead of looking into something that a friend of mine asked me to look into in a province that is 30 minutes away that I hunt in every fall? I also lived there for five years, and am probably returning in the near future. That's why i give a ####... a provincial border does not make me care any less about whats happening.

You think it's common sense? Well it certainly is not common sense for alot of hunters out there... in fact, do a search. There are a few threads here on CGN where new hunters (the ones that actually give a sh1t) ask about why we can't use FMJ's on game. For every one person that asks, there are 100 that don't think they are doing anything wrong. Just because people are naive and ignorant does not make it right.

Why don't you go troll somewhere else. Your post is useless and a waste of everyone's time.
 
####ing Liberal nanny staters that feel they "need" to make sure there are yet MORE laws in place for every goddamn thing on the planet are NO help to ANYONE. Why not call up our CFO and suck his d*ck for a while....I'm SURE you could find some things that he "needs to act on because the unwashed masses can't possibly be trusted to do anything without guidance" You know...in the interest of the common good of course.

Don't like what's happening in ON? Feel free to avoid it and stay in your own ####-hole of a province. The LAST thing we need are more "imports" from out of province coming here and telling us what we should do/how we should do it.

Seriously, feel free to stay out of my province...we have enough asshat politicians and their need to regulate everything now, we certaintly don't need to deal with so-called "concerned hunters" adding to the ####pile as well.

Heres an idea: Have your "buddy" take steps to make sure the hunting instructors are doing their job and teaching the newbies about proper ammo....rather than setting up your fellow shooter that is punching paper with FMJ and getting screwed by a CO that says "Well...I think you were hunting coyotes, and that's illegal"

####....no wonder we can't win. Even our own are turning into nanny-staters.
 
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Thanks bud, your whining and trolling is much appreciated. Typical to say the least. You obviously don't have much of a life if this is how you get your kicks.

For the record, the guy that asked me to look this up for him has done more for the shooting and hunting community in Ontario than you will ever do.

Have a good one, and thanks for ruining my thread.
 
Thanks bud, your whining and trolling is much appreciated. Typical to say the least. You obviously don't have much of a life if this is how you get your kicks.

For the record, the guy that asked me to look this up for him has done more for the shooting and hunting community in Ontario than you will ever do.

Have a good one, and thanks for ruining my thread.

Nice...Hey, maybe next time lead into your initial post saying that "opposing viewpoints will not be tolerated" ....typical.

Oh yeah, and:
For the record, the guy that asked me to look this up for him has done more for the shooting and hunting community in Ontario than you will ever do.

Yup....he's LOOKING for places to put useless new laws in place....I'm sure a guy like that has done tons....but all bad.

Like I said, don't like it here? Stay out. Too simple.
 
I was going to say this is not the place to ask about adding more laws when I seen this thread earlier but I had to go for dinner. I come back and bam I would have had the opertunity to say I TOLD YOU SO!.....

ah well theres always next time.... there seems to be alot of Liberal hand holders coming out of the wood work as of late???.....

LAWS!!!!! WHO NEEDS MORE STINKIN LAWS!!!!!!!

NOT THIS GUY! AND NOT ANYONE IN THIS STINKING PLACE WE CALL MORONTARIO NEEDS MORE NANNY LAWS!!!!
 
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Steyr101, disagreeing with you hardly constitutes "trolling."

I'm in agreement with Wrong Way. It's not like anybody wants to lose their game when they shoot it.

Using an insufficient type of ammunition to take down game is an uncommon mistake, and those who do so and lose track of the game will be punished enough by not getting the animal they wanted.

It's called "learning from your own mistakes," and it doesn't require a dime of taxpayer money to be spent on a useless court proceeding when the person has already learnt their lesson.
 
The problem is...it is a slippery slope.
So your buddy "does his duty" and gets that law on the books.....BUT:

What about Ballistic tips, Varmint grenades, Thin jacketed HP's, sub-caliber sabot rounds, HP target loads, etc. etc.. etc.

In any given caliber there are a TON of non FMJ rounds NOT suitable for big game, some that will do a FAR worse job than military ball....Smak a deer with a 243 varmint bullet and see what happens......what are you going to do about that? Legislate every bullet tyope on the market? Put 500 new laws on the books?

What about mandatory proficiency testing before hunting every year....make sure guys can actually shoot straight before going afield.....think that's a good idea too? You know....for the good of the animals and all that. Seriously: There are far more animals lost every year because people can't shoot....why not have him include a law on shot placement as well?
I'd much rather see a .30 FMJ in the boiler room then an "uber bullet" in the ass/guts...and no, I'm not advocating ball for hunting, I'm just saying....where do you draw the line and leave stuff to common sense?

Education....not legislation.
 
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While I agree with some of the points mentioned... there is a reason why FMJ's are not allowed in pretty much every province other than Ontario. It's that the vast majority of hunters are not CGN's, and as such, have absolutely no idea what makes a FMJ different than a soft point.

The reason it's a law in every other province is that FMJ's wound game, and ultimately kill it days, weeks and often months later because those who use them don't know any better and think that bullets are bullets, and the cheaper the better. In much the same way certain shot sizes are minimum for certain birds, and why certain calibers are minimum for certain animals, i fully understand why FMJ's are prohib for hunting in pretty much every other province. Im not talking about re-writing the books here.

I asked a question about whether or not it was in the Ontraio regs. I was not talking about whether or not it SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be there. I honestly could care less about individual opinion and ethical concerns on hunting with FMJ's. There are already a dozens of other threads on the topic, discussed in great detail.

A friend of mine asked me to look into it. I did, and in turn this thread turns into this. Im the first person who will engage in a good debate, but when a guy like Wrong Way bursts in with an agressive opinon that was not in any way the point of this thread... it's trolling. Pure and simple. I'll start another thread if you want, and we can discuss it till our fingers bleed.

If you wantto know why my buddy asked this question, it's because during the last hunters safety course, there was a real prick who insisted on hunting with milsurp FMJ's. My buddy tried to educate him with WHY it was unethical to hunt big game with them, but in the end, there was nothing to back him up in regards to regulations. So, I guess Wrong Way's viewpoint will win out on this one, and there will be at least one turd using FMJ's in the woods this year.
 
For what it's worth, my friend is someone who is in a position to potentially add this law to the hunting regs in Ontario, so he is looking for some precedents in other provinces to help with his cause.
The last thing we need is yet MORE laws. :(
 
What about mandatory proficiency testing before hunting every year....make sure guys can actually shoot straight before going afield.....think that's a good idea too?


You know, I worked at an indoor rifle range for a while... max distance was 50 yards. You would see the guys come in every September... looking to sight in. They'd fire 10 rounds from the BENCH, nothing hitting the paper. They'd come to the front, insisting their rifle or scope was broken or something. We'd take it back to the range, fire a few shots into the bullseye. He'd sit back down, fire a few, miss em all... and say that it was good enough.

If these guys can't hit a 15x15'' target at 50 yards off a bench... I certainly feel sorry for any big game these morons shoot at offhand at 200 yards.

When you take a bow course, hitting 5 targets at varying distance is required. During my course, about half were failed due to missing the targets vitals.

I'd agree with your statement about it being education and not legislation... but the vast majority think they know it all already, and have absolutely no desire to be educated.
 
Is there some sort of real, identifiable, large scale problem with FMJ's crippling game in Ontario or other provinces? Do you have statistics to back it up?

If not, then leave the bloody laws alone. FMJ's can be a good thing when hunting some animals (especially fur bearers) in some situations, so quit trying to invent a problem that doesn't exist.

It's like our bloody bow laws in BC that prohibit bow hunting grouse with anything less than a 45# bow, or the bison ammo law that makes a 160gr TSX from a 7mm RM illegal but a super soft, quick expanding 175gr bullet is legal...


If you wantto know why my buddy asked this question, it's because during the last hunters safety course, there was a real prick who insisted on hunting with milsurp FMJ's. My buddy tried to educate him with WHY it was unethical to hunt big game with them, but in the end, there was nothing to back him up in regards to regulations. So, I guess Wrong Way's viewpoint will win out on this one, and there will be at least one turd using FMJ's in the woods this year

You can't legislate against stupid.

Law or no, he'd probably still use them. Maybe he'd file a wee bit off the tips to comply, if it was actual law.

Enforcement of the FMJ laws are pretty much non existent as far as i can tell. Never had a CO ask to see my ammo.
 
Check the dates of the Heague Treaty . Over 100 years ago when politicians decided that non-expanding FMJ's was the only decent way to shoot people . That's where the myth started regarding a tiny hole in and a tiny hole out with FMJ's and relatively little damage . The myth was taken as gospel and incorperated into many fish and game acts by the unqualified , like your buddy . FMJ's start to tumble as soon as they hit causing massive tissue and bone damage and some will break in half causing twice the damage . A single AK FMJ , equal to a 30-30 will leave your arm or your leg hanging from a shred of skin and if it goes in your , or a deers chest you'll be able to stick your fist in the exit . Every bit as much damage as a modern softpoint and the Hague Treaty aside the reason the military still uses FMJ's is that they usually feed more reliably in automatic weapons . I recall shooting a moose with a .303 FMJ broadside into the shoulder and i had to throw a few pounds of meat away from the opposite should as it was shot so full of bone fragment . Same thing happens on thin skinned game . The FMJ bullet starts to tumble immediately . I've shot deer in the chest with .303 FMJ's and you can still stick your fist in the exit hole . Your buddies premise is based on a myth and being a hunter ed instructor or a cop makes him no expert , just another banning do gooder . Don't believe me , contact Reaper or some of the other active duty military guys on gunnutz who have seen up close what a FMJ from various calibers will do to game no matter where it hits and it is far from a tiny hole in and a tiny hole out with minimal damage . Shoot a coyote with a .223 FMJ and you pretty much ruin the hide because of the massive exit . That's why guys select bullets carefully that won't go through and cause a massive exit hole like a FMJ . Did you know that one handed , automatic knives some call switchblades were banned after a do gooder saw the musical movie , Westside Story in the 1950's , where fairly dangers dressed in black leather jackets sang and danced and flashed open automatic knives . There are plenty of applications for automatic knives for mountaineers , rafters , skydivers , emergency rescue or anyone else who is holding on with one hand and needs to open a knife with the other but someone like your buddy watched the movie and based on false information that only punks with black leather motorcycle jackets use automatic knives they need to be banned , and they were . Shoot a gopher with a .223 FMJ and you'll blow him in half although that's not supposed to happen because as we know , tiny hole in , tiny hole out and minimal tissue damage . Now i'd like to call you and your buddy liberal banning do gooder names and estimate you I.Q. but that will probably get me an infraction where flat out stupidity on so many levels is never admonished .
 
The reason it's a law in every other province is that FMJ's wound game, and ultimately kill it days, weeks and often months later because those who use them don't know any better and think that bullets are bullets, and the cheaper the better.
That is a total load of crap. What it really tells me is you and your well meaning buddy don't know what the hell you're talking about, and really haven't seen anything shot with solids in your life. You're running on "everybody knows" information - which is basically that "everybody knows" shyte.

I offer two things for your consideration. First, hunters in Africa - you know, the families actually living out in the bush, not the ones showing up for a $50,000 safari once in their life - have been shooting game with solids for generations. A friend of mine - a woman - said she never fired anything other than solids out of her .375 H&H until they fled the former Rhodesia for Canada. She has probably shot more game in her life than any dozen of us here, and she told me that both the .303 and the .375 worked just fine around their property, thank you very much.

Second, when we were over in Yugo, we shot the local version of elk and feral pigs for the locals who usually had little or nothing to eat, whenever we got a chance. As we weren't issued premium hunting ammo, we shot them with ball out of the C7A1's and C6's when we had a chance to unlimber the gun. So I have seen some pretty big animals tipped over with ball ammo, and here's what I saw:

Contrary to your claim that they run off to die days, weeks, and months later, they pretty much die where they're shot. I actually didn't see all that much difference than I do with my hunting rounds - and just to assuage your fears, I hunt with Barnes X's pretty much exclusively. If you think shooting pigs is no big deal, you haven't seen the size of the pigs over there.

I also saw some pretty impressive terminal performance when we gutted them. Frankly, if you didn't know what kind of ammunition was used, I doubt very much if you could tell which critter was hit with premium expanding and what was hit by ball - ball upsets and does a pretty good job, actually.

So I'll match what I have personally seen against the theories of you and your friend any day. That doesn't mean I am falling all over myself to use FMJ instead of what shoots so well in my rifle. But spreading a load of BS around about what solids supposedly do and how they leave animals wandering around wounded for weeks on end is irresponsible nonsense. We have PETA and their fellow travellers spreading enough BS without hunters helpfully adding to it.

Finally, I agree that the last thing we need in this country is yet more regulatory laws regimenting every damned breath and step we take in life. On the other hand, I also believe that hunters have to obey game laws, even the ones they think are nonsense, because of the fact we're in the public eye and so open to criticism.
 
did somebody say IBTL??


Why lock it ? This guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about and neither does his banning buddy and fortuneately for him , he came to the right place to get educated . It probably won't work because facts never get consideration from anyone on a crusade .
 
LOL wow is this thread ever headed into the crapper. We went from people searching all over the net to help him out, too crappin all over him (Someone here got out of the wrong side of the bed I think)

I will say this ....... As usual, I am leaning something from reading here on CGN. I was always under the impression that the FMJ went in and came out wounding the animal, as I have read on other threads here and from talking over the years to other people. There was even a thread on here somewhere that explained how it was intended to wound( people that is) so during a battle not only would the wounded person would be no longer fighting, but also one or two guys who were carrying him away from the battle.

So, lol now I am really mixed up because here we now have guys with true experience on how this bullet reacts on an animal when shot, which is completely contrary to what I have always been told.

I'm always learin....always learning ......
 
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