How to tell if my Hi Power is a clone or not...
- Thread starter racer111
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Johnone, does that mean that FN/Browning got FEG to make Hi-Powers for them at some point, or did FEG or someone get another factory that had at some point been contracted by FN/Browning to make them some copies, legitimate or not.
It appears to me that FEG (and Norinco) copies seem to have a slightly different size or shape to the heel of the grip area from a genuine modern production FN or Browning. Is this a different grip shape, an actuall difference in the line of the frame, or just an illusion I'm getting from the pictures?
It appears to me that FEG (and Norinco) copies seem to have a slightly different size or shape to the heel of the grip area from a genuine modern production FN or Browning. Is this a different grip shape, an actuall difference in the line of the frame, or just an illusion I'm getting from the pictures?
TOONER;
The pistol were are talking about IS identical to the Hi Power pistols of the day in all ways.... They were made in the same factory.
Not wishing to get anyone in hot water over this I don't feel that I should discuss the production details any further....
Suffice to say that the pistols discussed here, all produced at the same place are of the same quality....
Regards
John
The pistol were are talking about IS identical to the Hi Power pistols of the day in all ways.... They were made in the same factory.
Not wishing to get anyone in hot water over this I don't feel that I should discuss the production details any further....
Suffice to say that the pistols discussed here, all produced at the same place are of the same quality....
Regards
John
If you are talking about Hi-Powers sold under the FN brand, there's no big secret surrounding them, so no need to add to the confusion. They are real Hi-Powers, not clones. Fabrique Nationale manufactures all genuine Hi-Power pistols. Those that are destined for the North American civilian market are labeled "Browning Hi-Power" (Browning is a wholly owned subsidiary of FN); all others are labeled "Fabrique Nationale FN-HP".
So to clarify, what factory was that and in what country? Belgium? Hungary? Portugal? Somewhere else?
Or were they cast/forged/rough machined, whatever and then sent somewhere else for final machining/fitting/assembling?
With all due respect John, we appreciate you adding information to this post form your vast knowledge, but in all honesty you are adding confusion as well. I am finding this post interesting and would like to understand this period of the HP's history.
To add, I just assumed that throughout the history of this pistol, that the FN/Browning HP was always made in Belgium. It now seems that this is not the case?
Well, I'm not in the business so I can speculate and say some things that maybe Johnone feels an obligation not to. It looks like we are going to get neither confirmation nor denial, and that's just the way it goes some times.
Since FN/Browning owns the rights to the Hi-Power, if they say it is a genuine Hi-Power, it is. It doesn't matter if they make it in on an FN production line at Herstal in Belgium or have it assembled at an FN-owned factory in Portugal or they have it made for them in a factory belonging to another company such as FEG in Hungary and don't ever tell where it was made. The ones that FN says are FN or Browning Hi-Powers, are.
If FEG or Norinco make any without permission from FN, or if an FN employee sneaks a set of parts out to assemble at home or sneaks into the factory and makes one out of hours, their product isn't in the legal sense, a genuine or "real" Hi-Power, even if it is a perfect copy.
Ultimately a thing is worth whatever the buyer and seller agree it is worth. If I needed a pistol I'd use FEG or Norinco copy of an FN Browning or anything else if that was all that was available. As it's a discretionary purchase for recreation, I won't knowingly pay as much for them as I would for a Browning, even if it was demonstrated to my satisfaction that they were built to the same specifications and standards. But if I eventually buy a Browning with proper Browning stamps and an FN serial number and I never discover it was manufactured to FN's specs at FN's behest in another company's factory in Hungary or elsewhere, I suppose ignorance is bliss.
Since FN/Browning owns the rights to the Hi-Power, if they say it is a genuine Hi-Power, it is. It doesn't matter if they make it in on an FN production line at Herstal in Belgium or have it assembled at an FN-owned factory in Portugal or they have it made for them in a factory belonging to another company such as FEG in Hungary and don't ever tell where it was made. The ones that FN says are FN or Browning Hi-Powers, are.
If FEG or Norinco make any without permission from FN, or if an FN employee sneaks a set of parts out to assemble at home or sneaks into the factory and makes one out of hours, their product isn't in the legal sense, a genuine or "real" Hi-Power, even if it is a perfect copy.
Ultimately a thing is worth whatever the buyer and seller agree it is worth. If I needed a pistol I'd use FEG or Norinco copy of an FN Browning or anything else if that was all that was available. As it's a discretionary purchase for recreation, I won't knowingly pay as much for them as I would for a Browning, even if it was demonstrated to my satisfaction that they were built to the same specifications and standards. But if I eventually buy a Browning with proper Browning stamps and an FN serial number and I never discover it was manufactured to FN's specs at FN's behest in another company's factory in Hungary or elsewhere, I suppose ignorance is bliss.
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I think what John is trying to allude to is that Browning was having their Hi-Power 9mm pistols made by FEG in Hungary. Browning is a company that, to the best of my knowledge, does not make anything, they just re-badge other gun companies products. I seem to remember Browning selling a SIGP220 45ACP back in the day and a Beretta 380ACP as their own...
That's perhaps a bit unfair to Browning. They may not own any factories, but getting someone else to manufacture their own designs is not the same as re-badging other company's products. If they did get P220s from SIG to be marked and sold as Brownings or got permission from SIG to have P220s made by someone else to be marked and sold as Brownings that is re-badging, but that isn't all that Browning does.
Well Johnone for the record your ambiguous posts sound shady as ####.
Bottom line - would FN/Browning recognize these 28,000 pistols serial numbers as theirs? That is the only question that needs to be answered. If they do then they're legit and if they don't they are forgeries.
This site would suggest that they wouldn't.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Hi Power Dates of Manufacture.htm
Can anyone verify this?
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Yes, it is. Browning as a company has never been in the business of designing firearms. The company wasn't even founded until after JMB's death. It is an American importer/marketer of foreign-made firearms, nothing more (and for the last several decades, it's been a wholly owned subsidiary of FN).
I don't believe that guide applies to all FNs ever made (MKIIIs certainly do not follow that numbering system).This site would suggest that they wouldn't.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Hi Power Dates of Manufacture.htm
Can anyone verify this?
So who designed the A-Bolt, the BAR, etc.? I'm under the impression that they are Browning designs. (I'd rather discover that I was wrong about that than continue to be wrong.) I'm not trying to tell you you should think any better of Browning than you want to, just to clarify what I think we should understand "re-badging" to mean.
If Browning gets Sig to build a Sig pistol with Browning markings or buys permission from Sig to have someone else copy a Sig design and mark it with the Browning name so they can sell it with a Browning model designation, yes, that's re-badging.
I understand Browning doesn't own its own production lines but if the company employs its own designers or commissions independent designers to design something exclusively for them (as FN did when they got John Browning to design the HiPower,) and then contracts the actual production to factories owned by their current parent company or an outside factory, I don't think it is accurate to call that just "re-badging." If Browning owns the design, it's a Browning. If Browning owns the design and FN owns Browning, and FN says it's a Browning, it's a Browning. And if the design comes from another part of FN and FN owns Browning and FN says this one's a Browning, it's a Browning.
