new production gun for me... back to basics

O

omen

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Hi all,

I've heard a number of people mention (whine, moan, etc) that Production is now ridiculously non-production, with the countless "prod-legal" race updates to the SP01, or the, let's be honest, custom, competition guns like the CZ Shadow and the Tanfoglio Stocks, and how the original idea of ordinary duty guns being competative is now completely dead...

Feat not!! I'm shooting a totally stock, no internal modifications/updates/changes of ANY KIND IMI Baby Eagle, and it did quite well against the above mentioned guns this weekend in the Quebec provincials... I say no internal modifications because I did put on different sights, but nothing else was changed in any way...

So, if you have an ordinary duty which which shoots well, and which fits you, and works for you, that's all you need! Those people shooting the "fancy" guns, if they are beating you by 20-40%, it's NOT because of the guns - they are just more experienced shooters... If you train and practice like they do, their gun will NOT be a huge advantage over you.. Remember, you cannot buy performance, and there is no substitution for some practice and good coaching from the top level shooters, all of whom tend to put on training sessions for anyone who's interested...

So please, take the energy spent whining about Production equipment creep and invest it into practice, and you won't be affected by the equipment race :)
 
Very true Omen; the gun is only a launching platform. It's the operator that makes the difference. True shooting skills transport across all platforms.

I do like nice stuff though.
 
Freedom Ventures said:
Omen: Are you going to the New Brunswick Provincials?
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HI,

I didn't think I was going to be able to get the time off work, so I didn't signup, but now I left that job 'cuz I hated it, so I'm free, but the match is full, hehe... So, no, looks like no east coast matches for me this year 8-(

Next year!! Hopefully you'll have some baby eagle parts/accessories on display/available by then!! :) (I saw that's coming, on your website).
 
That's too bad.

I'd like to have seen your theory tested against Jim's Stock II and Cliff's SP-01.

Yes, My first eagle order should arrive this month, including the "little ones" :D
 
Cliff has been wearing a kilt in competition lately. I heard that he has been going regimental. Personally I see the lack of underpants as providing him the edge. Less weight in the fruit of the loom makes him a low drag shooter.
 
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jasonburnsdundee said:
Cliff has been wearing a kilt in competition lately. I heard that he has been going regimental. Because cliff wins with this apparal does this mean that we should all start wearing kilts without underpants in order to be competitive.?
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Cliff wears the kilt to intimidate his competition. I think it is working, especially on the prone stages.
 
Freedom Ventures said:
That's too bad.

I'd like to have seen your theory tested against Jim's Stock II and Cliff's SP-01.
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well, the theory being here that if they win it won't be because of a superiority of a gun, but because they are better shooters, or had a better match... BEtween the three of us, every one had beaten the other 2 at SOME match(s), so we're more or less on the same level, plus/minos a delta, so as long as we ended up within, say, 5-8%, it'd be what's expected... :)
 
"Remember, you cannot buy performance"

Are you crazy??? If my wife reads this I'm toast. I just got here primed for a new CZ Shadow. My bad back and crawl that passes for a run has nothing to do with my "C" status.....:D

Actually I love my Tan Model "L". I use it for IDPA ESP. D/A Trigger pull is still just a tad heavy for decent IPSC Production and I can't bring myself to replacing the "mainspring" for competition purposes.

But when I get that "Shadow" "B" shooters beware.

Take Care

Bob
 
omen said:
well, the theory being here that if they win it won't be because of a superiority of a gun, but because they are better shooters, or had a better match... BEtween the three of us, every one had beaten the other 2 at SOME match(s), so we're more or less on the same level, plus/minos a delta, so as long as we ended up within, say, 5-8%, it'd be what's expected... :)
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I read this to say that you can't prove your hypothesis that a basic gun is no different in the hands of an experienced shooter vs. a tricked out one. Am I wrong?
 
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Thanks for the tip guys. Do love my "L" model. At 41 oz. it just makes weight for ESP in IDPA but is to heavy for SSP. Will use it at our next IPSC club match with the 9MM top end.

I have been using an M&P but, the heavier steel guns soak up recoil making for slightly faster transitions. Never could understand the Glock reliability facination. I have well over 8,000 rds on my Tan and have yet to have a FTF or jam of any kind. I do prefer the higher cut in the Tan grip over the CZ but there really isn't much to choose between the two.

Take Care

Bob
 
it does help (leaving it cocked),..I used to do that with my USP.

Re: shooter not the gun. My stock2 is every bit the same as Jim's S2,..at times I think I can be an accurate shooter,..but guys like Jim and Cliff beat me because they have MUCH more experience,..better control and move quicker on stages. IF I had been using my HK USP,..I would not have been doing as well. It is a lesser gun as compared to a Stock2 or Shadow. I have not been practicing live fire much at all. (no babysitter during the summer),...but the Stock2 has better weight distribution and allows me to get better hits at distance and to a point at closer targets. that alone can help improve scores.
BTW, I think Cliff and Jim have improved over last year. Jim is more aggressive,.and Cliff is just as accurate, and a little smoother (god help us if he decides to start wearing less clothing LOL)
 
Freedom Ventures said:
a basic gun is no different in the hands of an experienced shooter vs. a tricked out one. Am I wrong?
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no, that's not at all what I'm saying. My point is that you don't need to trick up/out/etc your gun to be competitive in production.

Someone compared a glock to an sp01 - that doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying, of course different guns will fit/feel/recoil/etc differently in your hands, find the one(s) which works best for you. Someone who shoots a Glock because that was suggested to him who switched to an SP01 and finds that frame and grip angle much better fitting will of course shoot better, but that isn't because the SP01 had all those funky cz-usa parts in it, it's mostly because the Glock was a poor choice for him to begin with...

A better comparison would be a regular SP01 vs a tricked up SP01; of course the latter will "feel" better, maybe it will make the gun more forgiving re poor trigger control, but it's not going to make a D shooter into an A shooter. It's not going to all of the sudden make you competitive, whereas with a regular SP01 you're not. Jamieson shoots a non-tricked out Beretta, and kicks ass. I use a non-tricked out Baby Eagle, and do ok. I don't think either of us will be "outgunned" on equipment shooting against people with Shadows and Stock 2s. IF we do well it won't be because of the guns we shoot, and if we don't, it won't be because of the guns we shoot either.

Of course after you spend $500 on extra parts and gunsmithing the gun will "be better", but that's a tiny delta...

My point is that you don't have to get one of those guns, or trick out your gun to that level, to be competitive, to shoot at your level. Of course whatever gun you do shoot has to fit you, but there are countless guns on the list which you can choose from - don't need to think that only the super-guns are playable...
 
Thanks for all the words of wisdom. I pledge to buy a new GP6 for research purposes only, and leave it stock to match the older K100.

I choose to suck on my own terms.
 
You are all entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I call Bull####. A skilled shooter with a tricked out production gun will score better than an equally skilled shooter with a piece of #### stock gun. There's a reason why nobody uses 5 lb trigger pulls in Standard or Open Division. A clean trigger makes a world of difference in competition shooting, and Production division is no exception. There's a reason why people went to fancy bomar style sights instead of the old sights that originally came with the 1911. There's a reason why we go for magazine wells as large as we are legally allowed.

I don't know exactly what other changes would qualify a production style gun as "tricked out", but the right changes make a big difference.
 
hungrybeagle said:
You are all entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I call Bulls**t. A skilled shooter with a tricked out production gun will score better than an equally skilled shooter with a piece of s**t stock gun. There's a reason why nobody uses 5 lb trigger pulls in Standard or Open Division. A clean trigger makes a world of difference in competition shooting, and Production division is no exception. There's a reason why people went to fancy bomar style sights instead of the old sights that originally came with the 1911. There's a reason why we go for magazine wells as large as we are legally allowed.

I don't know exactly what other changes would qualify a production style gun as "tricked out", but the right changes make a big difference.
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What about Mr. Sevigny?
 
hungrybeagle said:
You are all entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I call Bulls**t. A skilled shooter with a tricked out production gun will score better than an equally skilled shooter with a piece of s**t stock gun. There's a reason why nobody uses 5 lb trigger pulls in Standard or Open Division. A clean trigger makes a world of difference in competition shooting, and Production division is no exception. There's a reason why people went to fancy bomar style sights instead of the old sights that originally came with the 1911. There's a reason why we go for magazine wells as large as we are legally allowed.

I don't know exactly what other changes would qualify a production style gun as "tricked out", but the right changes make a big difference.
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Hmm, I think what Omen might be trying to say (and I could be wrong)is that you can be pretty competitive and get out and enjoy yourself at matches with stock equipment...so long as you choose the right stock equipment for YOU. Doesn't mean you will necessarily win; but you can do pretty well.

Of course if you want to win consistently then everything has to be dialed in; correct equipment that is properly tuned and modded to the individuals needs, correct technique, mindset, hydration, nutrition, etc. I think that the gun Omen chose is actually a pretty decent machine right out of the box, and happens to suit his style of shooting very well. Basically a CZ pattern gun with good weight distribution and a pretty decent trigger and sights.

All things being equal, top shooters with similar skill sets should always place fairly close to each other in competition, but the ones who bring the better overall "package" to the table are probably going to win more consistently.
 
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