338 Lapua Sniper

Ganderite
If what you say is the case, then this fellow would have ready access to far more than many of us could imagine. 338LM has been around long enough and
in use by other NATO and allied forces that he shouldn't have to surf or troll
for anything. Shared info among favoured nations. Try pulling the other one!
 
He has access to many users. I happen to be on a list of people he talks to. Since I don't know anything about the caliber I thought I would ask here, in case someone had some useful info to share.
 
GANDERITE said:
Wow, not the response I was expecting...

My friend is an accomplished shooter who was transferred by his employer to a position where his shooting knowledge and interests would be useful.

I have filled military contracts for super accurate 50 cal sniper ammo, and have been involved with the testing of military 50 cal ammo and rifles. I would be pleased to share 50 cal info with him, but he was looking for 338 feedback.

I have competed against shooters using the 338 Lap but did not pay much attention to them, other than the rifles were loud and I did not want to be close to them. I wish I had paid more attention and I wish I had picked their brains.

My friend has a lot of knowledge and a lot of experience. In fact, he has so much experience that he has learned that it is a good idea to ask questions before making decisions. He asked me if I knew anything that would be helpful.

In the real world it sometimes turns out that after making a decision, someone you know might say "You bought what!! I just finished a two week exercise with Seal Team 3 testing that ammo, and we found out that….” So he has been asking around. A prudent thing to do.

As it happens I know nothing about the Lap 338. But I was pretty sure there would be users on this forum, so I solicited your input.

I don’t think it prudent to mention what outfit he is with. He is a serving officer in a military we would all consider a long time ally of Canada.
Click to expand...

ROFLMAO. Ya, right...And Al Gore invented the internet too.
 
I admit, the first post seemed troll-like, but I fail to see a problem with the expanded explanation.

When I'm about to buy something new (& often expensive) I usually ask around to those I know who might have some personal experience, even if there are more reliable sources out there.

If I knew anything about the round (other than what's already mentioned - pricey, loud and in between .308 and .50) I'd share it.
 
If you would like, maybe GANDERITE could list his shooting credentials so you can see he is not a troll;) While you are at it Jim how about a list of articles you have written? I know you are not one to brag but it might get some people to STFU. :slap:
 
Well, Lapua makes brass for it and IIRC they also have a new 300gr bullet out. The problem for us regular guys is driving the 300mk fast enough with the powders available. At 2800, it has some hitting power and works well but nothing exciting. If you have an unreleased better powder and can get the velocity up a couple hundered fps... PM me :D
 
338 LM full potential

Include in your research the use of the LM-105 High B.C. bullet.
You need a Lothar Walter progressive twist barrel to shoot it.

AWWWWsome and scary!!!!

google it !
 
All the "Troll" accusations attest to the impressive characteristics of the .338 Lapua Mag.
 
K1LLswitch said:
I admit, the first post seemed troll-like, but I fail to see a problem with the expanded explanation.

When I'm about to buy something new (& often expensive) I usually ask around to those I know who might have some personal experience, even if there are more reliable sources out there.

If I knew anything about the round (other than what's already mentioned - pricey, loud and in between .308 and .50) I'd share it.
Click to expand...

I agree with this guy's statement, however like this guy said, I now believe you are who you say you are so lets progress.

The standard 338LM like was mentioned is tough to get going fast enough to really see the potency of the caliber but when you AI the casing, like Rick at Alberta Tactical Rifle has done, you get an increased powder capacity and HP of about 12% which with burning US869 out of a 29-30" tube gets you a velocity of about 3050fps which makes a 300SMK only drop about 20.5MOA at 1000yds and have better penetration then a 647gr FMJ 50cal round. Energy wise the 50cal will never be beat by something smaller but that's just physics.
This improved casing also extends the life of the brass almost infinitely. Rick has shot his brass 15 times and hasn't had one failure or had to trim his brass at all. Case prep takes minutes with only neck sizing and maybe sometimes bumping the shoulder back 1 thou. We've got some of the first 300gr Lapua bullets to enter the country but the bullet is the same length as the SMK. Lapua claims they have a BC of .810 in comparasion to the SMK with a .768 BC but as long as you have a scope with enough elevation, you can always adjust for bullet drop.
Our AI'd Lapuas drop below supersonic at 2350yds and drop below 1000fps at about 2650yds.

That's my 2 cents.

cheers
 
Glock-a-maniac said:
Tell you what, since I'm in sales and have SOME;) working knowledge of what the 338LM is capable of, how about I subcontract myself to your friend, you sit back and relax and I'll do what I do and cut him in on the much larger sale. That way, you and him won't look like total idiots and he keeps his job.

By the way, what sniper outfit is this anyway? More details please.[/quote

To those that do not know him , Ganderite IS the real deal, he is better with sling and irons at long range than many are with a bipod and scope and has been shooting longer than many have been alive....
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the info about new bullets and the round needing more powder or powder capacity. Just the kind of info I find interesting and he might find useful.

Over the years I have learned to understand the frustration he faces because of military inertia and lack of imagination. I have some Ackely Improved rifles, with a 260 AI being my current favourite. But Ackley is not an option for him, becasue they do not reload. he has to buy a rifle with off-the shelf ammo support.

But he can and does write his own ammo specs and sources sniper ammo from custom ammo makers. So, if they buy some 338 rifles, they could palce an order for ammo using any bullet/case/powder combination.

Their sniper rifle is a Accuracy International in 308. He mentioned that the barrels all have around 10,000 rounds through them. This is becasue they were assured, when they bought them, that this was within the accuracy life of the barrel. I suggested that each rifle should be re-barrled and while they were at it, fit another barrel or two for each rifle, so that in the future each rifle could be re-barrled at the local level when accuracy drops off.

I suggested they send the rifles to a well-known barrel maker and ask him to chamber and headspace three barrels for each rifle. The cost would be about the same as what A.I. charges to replace one barrel.

He laughed and said he has zero chance of buying any barrel other than A.I. I know many of readers on this forum have shot out a factory barrel and had it replaced, but almost none of you have sent the rifle back to Savage, Ruger, or Remchester for the job. That is what custom barrrel makers and gunsmiths are for. But he does not have that option.

Which leads to why he asks guys like me for my opnion on some shooting issues. Most military and police organisations are staffed with people trained by their respective organizations. They are not shooting enthusiasts. They do not "experiement" much at the unit level. Most would never have heard of an Ackley chamber. Most order ammo from a catalog. Few understand how to write a specification for tender that would allow a maker to improve their results.

Only a very, very few know enough to be able to ask around for ideas because when they do a lot of what they get back is delusional nonsense from people with good intentions who do not know they do not know. It takes a lot of understanding and experience to be able to separate real information from fantasy or exrapolated anecdotes.

Another problem within our industry is that it is common for a military buyer to require a vendor to sign a confidentiality agreement. This means he cannot tell others that unit X just bought this kind of ammo or that kind of silencer. This makes some sense.

Getting back to the original question - assuming the rifle was fed quality match grade ammo, does the 338 have any advantage over the 50 cal? I would rather carry a 338 than a 50, but I find a 50 cal God-like at long range.
 
From a pure accuracy standpoint, the 338 would get my nod. BMG's can be very accurate as illustrated by the boomers in the 50BMG association. The 338's can shoot that much better as illustrated by the 1000yd BR guys on the East Coast.

However, this is about military platforms. The 338LM is easily housed in a 'conventional' style bolt action allowing for all the accuracy tweaks. Think PGW and similar rifles. They will be smaller and lighter. Everything is scaled down vs the BMG.

The BMG, at least through the eyes of the US forces, are typically launched from Barretts. Very accurate in the antimaterial role but no where the accuracy of good ole bolt.

I have yet to read sub MOA and Barrett in the same sentence.

I have seen demos on the AI semi BMG (poor scope). Again, no bughole shooter there.

Never seen reports on the bolt AI though so can't say. But they seem pricey.

The Steyr's (ones in Canada) are nothing to right home about either. Only the custom rigs like the McMillans have a rep for LR pin point accuracy that can rival a smaller bore bolt.

Ammo is another consideration. Will the forces spec bullets like the Amax in the BMG or are they more likely to choose an antimaterial slug like the RUFOS (sp?)

All the factory Lapua I know of pushes match bullets so the LR results can be really good. I am unaware of LE/military only spec ammo but would be open to learn. What's in the RUAG stuff?

I am speaking from seeing these rifles shoot side by side at extreme distances.

There is little doubt that the BMG delivers a MUCH bigger punch at LR and makes a much better big object buster but I would take a 338LM anyday for picking off varmints at long distances.

If the varmints are small enough, I would lean on the 7mm above all of these.

Jerry
 
Sounds like army for hire outfit..prob...Iraq personal protection.or South America diamond runs.I turned down 2 offers over the past 5 years..
 
My friend is a serving officer in a Commonwealth Army.

My 50 cal experience is with military units buying ammo for McMillan rifles. One unit builds their own, using single shot actions with an extra action screw in the middle. This action has lots of bedding and delivers very good accuracy. Aganist my advice to talk to this unit, my other customer bought bolt action repeaters.

The ammo features weighed brass and weighed powder charges. Bullets have been Amax and a swaged copper bullet. Amax is cheaper and works well, but the aluminum nose plug expodes on contact and starts grass fires.

Military organisations often steer clear of placing shooters with experience in roles that would be useful. They either dismiss them as "Gun nuts!" or are afraid that their ideas are all predjudiced in some way. My friend is the rare exception.

I recall an Army that decided it would be a good idea to consider buying 50 cal sniper rifles. They thought it prudent to see what the rifles were capable of, before commiting to buy. This was a project separate from the unit that might actually be eventually tasked to use the rifles - the snipers.

They tasked an engineer to conduct the test. She had never fired a rifle. She envisioned a test rig to hold a rifle with a lazer to aim on the target for each test shot.

I suggested borrowing a good 50 cal rifle, buying some match ammo and getting an experienced 50 cal shooter (the rifle owner) to shoot the rifle off a solid bench. Total cost would be the cost of building a concrete block bench at the tank range, plus the cost of the ammo.

She had difficulty in beliving that 50 cal MG ammo would not be good enough for the test... I don't know what eventually happened.
 
It's strange you mention A-max rounds starting grass fires because I've never seen a spark from these rounds. Trace yes and API yes but never an A-Max. I can imagine though shooting at a human would be devestating. I'm guessing the bullet would probably rip a human in two. I've seen what it does to deer. It was only the ribcage and tough skin that held the deer together.

The fact that the Canadian military has a bunch of 408Cheytacs without ammo to shoot out of them is just the tip of the iceberg of stupidity when it comes to spending money. No wonder we bought submarines with screen doors.
 
GANDERITE said:
My friend is a serving officer in a Commonwealth Army.

My 50 cal experience is with military units buying ammo for McMillan rifles. One unit builds their own, using single shot actions with an extra action screw in the middle. This action has lots of bedding and delivers very good accuracy. Aganist my advice to talk to this unit, my other customer bought bolt action repeaters.

The ammo features weighed brass and weighed powder charges. Bullets have been Amax and a swaged copper bullet. Amax is cheaper and works well, but the aluminum nose plug expodes on contact and starts grass fires.

Military organisations often steer clear of placing shooters with experience in roles that would be useful. They either dismiss them as "Gun nuts!" or are afraid that their ideas are all predjudiced in some way. My friend is the rare exception.

I recall an Army that decided it would be a good idea to consider buying 50 cal sniper rifles. They thought it prudent to see what the rifles were capable of, before commiting to buy. This was a project separate from the unit that might actually be eventually tasked to use the rifles - the snipers.

They tasked an engineer to conduct the test. She had never fired a rifle. She envisioned a test rig to hold a rifle with a lazer to aim on the target for each test shot.

I suggested borrowing a good 50 cal rifle, buying some match ammo and getting an experienced 50 cal shooter (the rifle owner) to shoot the rifle off a solid bench. Total cost would be the cost of building a concrete block bench at the tank range, plus the cost of the ammo.

She had difficulty in beliving that 50 cal MG ammo would not be good enough for the test... I don't know what eventually happened.
Click to expand...

If your "friend" truly wanted advice regarding .338 Lapua performance in military operations, then comming to a civilian web board where the probabilty of finding such reliable and documented information, is likely "zero".

You list your impressive credentials but yet you know nothing of this catridge and you or your "friend" lack the resources on where to find the information you wish to obtain? Why not contact Lapua, other Commonwealth/NATO nations, or even our own professional "end users" here in our very own military?

If this information request is sincere, I suggest you/he contact Peter Dobson @ Hirsch Precision. Years ago, he showed me a rather in-depth Canadian Forces technical manual on the .338 Lapua. If you're request is legit, you/he/whomever should have easy access to this information through appropriate channels.

If it sounds like a troll, smells like a troll, then guess what comes next?

This isn't adding up.
 
Last edited:
Glock-a-maniac said:
The fact that the Canadian military has a bunch of 408Cheytacs without ammo to shoot out of them is just the tip of the iceberg of stupidity when it comes to spending money. No wonder we bought submarines with screen doors.
Click to expand...

Never heard this before, do you have a source for this?

Not doubting the stupidity part of your statement, plenty of that floating around the military, especially in regards to R&D, and procurement.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom