338 Lapua Sniper

[redleg]

If your "friend" truly wanted advice regarding .338 Lapua performance in military operations, then comming to a civilian web board where the probabilty of finding such reliable and documented information, is likely "zero".

You list your impressive credentials but yet you know nothing of this catridge and you or your "friend" lack the resources on where to find the information you wish to obtain? Why not contact Lapua, other Commonwealth/NATO nations, or even our own professional "end users" here in our very own military?

If this information request is sincere, I suggest you/he contact Peter Dobson @ Hirsch Precision. Years ago, he showed me a rather in-depth Canadian Forces technical manual on the .338 Lapua. If you're request is legit, you/he/whomever should have easy access to this information through appropriate channels.

If it sounds like a troll, smells like a troll, then guess what comes next?

This isn't adding up.

You need to re read his post. His friend is not looking here, he is.

As far as contacting the CF for info on the cartridge - don't bother. The CF has never undertaken any in depth trials on the 338LM and their trials to date have been ludicrous. Both the UK and Australian have undertaken detailed trials using several ammo types and platforms at the limits of the cartridge capability. However the results are likely confidential in nature. You can however deduce what manufacturer(s) performed the best.

 

[Glock-a-maniac]

Never heard this before, do you have a source for this?

Not doubting the stupidity part of your statement, plenty of that floating around the military, especially in regards to R&D, and procurement.

The 408Cheytac part came straight from the guys that were contacted to build bullets and work up ammo loads for the guns themselves. There was a big question regarding how the Canadian military would put a Cheytac in the hands of a civilian for load developement purposes legally.

 

[2bad4u2]

You need to re read his post. His friend is not looking here, he is.

As far as contacting the CF for info on the cartridge - don't bother. The CF has never undertaken any in depth trials on the 338LM and their trials to date have been ludicrous. Both the UK and Australian have undertaken detailed trials using several ammo types and platforms at the limits of the cartridge capability. However the results are likely confidential in nature. You can however deduce what manufacturer(s) performed the best.

I did read his first post. Yes, I understand that he is looking for info on behalf of his friend. Which is exactly what I've commented on.

From my recollection, the technical specification manual I saw was CF issue. If Peter chimes in, perhaps he'll remember the reference manual which I saw.

There are numerous other refernces that are publically available on the .338 LM. One of the catridge's original creators, Dr. John Taylor, if I remember correctly, has written a number of articles on the development and peformance capabilities of the cartridge in its earliest developmental stages. Lapua, of course, picked up the ball from Taylor and the boys at CRANE, and have developed it much further to its current offering.

 

[RePete]

I love checking in for the utter bulls**t.

Best regards,

Peter

Now, now Peter, let them have their illusions.

FWIW Hornady makes .338LM 225gr HPBT ammo and it's quite accurate and has a velocity of 2869fps from my Timberwolf, 15 feet from the muzzle.

The CF are using Lapua with the 250gr LockBase bullet.

My loads are averaging approximately 2850fps.

These are 5 shot averages.

 

[peterdobson]

The original quote asked for info that would be for a sniper unit. I won't talk about sensitive business on a public forum. Lots of stories posted and some real info on which I won't comment further.

Regards,

Peter

 

[Ganderite]

Quote "If your "friend" truly wanted advice regarding .338 Lapua performance in military operations, then comming to a civilian web board where the probabilty of finding such reliable and documented information, is likely "zero".

You list your impressive credentials but yet you know nothing of this catridge and you or your "friend" lack the resources on where to find the information you wish to obtain? Why not contact Lapua, other Commonwealth/NATO nations, or even our own professional "end users" here in our very own military?"

You you just trolling fo an argument or just wanting to issue insults, regarless of the facts?

I never said he lacked the resorces to go to all the regular offical sources. I assume he has done that. he sometines asks me my opinion on something because sometimes I have a differnet perspective.

In this case he asked a question about something I knew nothing about. There are many things I know nothing about - mostly subjects which I don't care to know anyhting about.

In this case, it is a subject that I do have some interest, so I asked for information. I gave the context of my question so that those in the know could decide what info to share.

So far it sounds like it is a handier rifle and at least as accurate as a 50 at 1,000 yards. I would like to hear more about accuracy at long range, prefereably compared to 50 cal, the only other caliber I know.

Thanks for mentioning Peter Dobson. I suspect they know each other (my friend is a Canadian) and may be on the list of those he contacts.

The grass fires resulted from an ammo test in Canada. The bullets were the original Amax version. The aluminum nose plugs exploded on contact. The theory was that the aluminum vaporized then ignited. The range was in the order of 600 yards. This was on a field fire range, not into a backstop.

 

[Glock-a-maniac]

Here's something I've personally seen which baffles me but someone here might have some insight as to what happens anyways, at one of our 50cal shoots, some gongs were brought out that were T1 tank hull. They were set out anywhere between 400meters and 700meters. We banged away at them all day and when we went to retreave the plates, we found totally intacted alluminum tims which measured about 1" sitting infront of the steel targets. Also the deer that was shot with the A-Max also was found with the same alluminum 'christmas tree' shaped tip and core infront of the body. I've found parts of the jacket wrapped around the alluminum part after the bullet carving a huge channel in the dirt behind our plywood targets. I've slammed them inot large rocks without even a spark. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to how these bullets end their jouney.

 

[2bad4u2]

Quote "If your "friend" truly wanted advice regarding .338 Lapua performance in military operations, then comming to a civilian web board where the probabilty of finding such reliable and documented information, is likely "zero".

You list your impressive credentials but yet you know nothing of this catridge and you or your "friend" lack the resources on where to find the information you wish to obtain? Why not contact Lapua, other Commonwealth/NATO nations, or even our own professional "end users" here in our very own military?"

You you just trolling fo an argument or just wanting to issue insults, regarless of the facts?

I never said he lacked the resorces to go to all the regular offical sources. I assume he has done that. he sometines asks me my opinion on something because sometimes I have a differnet perspective.

In this case he asked a question about something I knew nothing about. There are many things I know nothing about - mostly subjects which I don't care to know anyhting about.

In this case, it is a subject that I do have some interest, so I asked for information. I gave the context of my question so that those in the know could decide what info to share.

So far it sounds like it is a handier rifle and at least as accurate as a 50 at 1,000 yards. I would like to hear more about accuracy at long range, prefereably compared to 50 cal, the only other caliber I know.

Thanks for mentioning Peter Dobson. I suspect they know each other (my friend is a Canadian) and may be on the list of those he contacts.

The grass fires resulted from an ammo test in Canada. The bullets were the original Amax version. The aluminum nose plugs exploded on contact. The theory was that the aluminum vaporized then ignited. The range was in the order of 600 yards. This was on a field fire range, not into a backstop.

Hmm...I wasn't trolling in the slightest but asking natural questions and pointing out the painfully obvious.

So far it sounds like it is a handier rifle and at least as accurate as a 50 at 1,000 yards. I would like to hear more about accuracy at long range,

I've never heard anyone make those claims. That would be stretching the truth just a wee bit. At those distances and beyond, the shooter's skills in marksmanship and his/her ability to read the wind and environmental conditions will of course be more important than the rifle and ammo they are shooting. It's a fair assumption that your equipment is at least adequate enough for the job if you're doing this type of distance shooting on a regular basis.

Anyone who shoots a .50 BMG will likely tell you the learning curve to shooting it accurately at distance is far more steep than that of other long range standard magnum-type chamberings. Being an experienced shooter, I'm assuming you already know this, right?

Here is just a few of the many readily available in-depth articles on the .338LM. There are many more out there. If you do even the rudimentary of research on this, you will likely find countless others.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/military-338-lapua-rifles-trg42-awsm/

http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=889
(if you can locate the bottom references to Dr. John Taylor's articles from Precision Shooting, they are a good resource)

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek069.html

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/338-m-o-g-mother-all-guns-pics-story-10623/

Sniper's Hide is a valuable resource on this topic. Zak Smith, Raydog, SR90, Dogtown, Triggerfifty, Fredo, an Lt. Arclight are just some of the known individuals who have extensive experiece in this cartridge.

There are a numer of guys on this site that own .338LM rifles. If you ask them some specific questions, perhaps they'll be able to help.

 

[Ganderite]

"Also the deer that was shot with the A-Max also was found with the same alluminum 'christmas tree' shaped tip and core infront of the body. I've found parts of the jacket wrapped around the alluminum part"

That aluminum tip has caused me a lot of grief. In the mark 1 version the accuracy was not waht it should ahve been. This was the bullet that was causing grass fires on a field fire test.

I bought a batch of the second design (about 500) and in a flash of brilliance, decided to have them coated. The first step was an etching bath. The coating manufacturer assured us the etch would not hurt the bullet. It disolved most of the aluminum tips. I now have a bucket of semi hollow points...

I don't see how those tips are being recovered intact, unless you are loading them upside down?

I load scrap military bullets upside down in my 30-30. They cycle though the magazine just fine and make great 50 yard plinkers.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

"Also the deer that was shot with the A-Max also was found with the same alluminum 'christmas tree' shaped tip and core infront of the body. I've found parts of the jacket wrapped around the alluminum part"

I in fact shot the deer being mentioned, and still have said tip, along with many more that we have recovered when 750 gr Amaxs hit the dirt backstop at my range.
In the 10 years I have been shooting many thousands 750 gr Amaxs at everything from animals to steel targets I have never had a fire started. I am not saying it is not possible, but this is certainly a new 1 on me.
I will try to post a photo os some of the recovered tips.

As for 338 Lapua versus 50, I have several of both. The 338s are far more portable, shooting the 300 gr SMKs out of my 338LAI I have a flatter trajectory out to 1500 yards than the 50s, I have not spent much time with the non Ackley improved chambering, so can't comment much on trajectory with 250 gr bullets, a ballistics program will quickly answer that question.
A person can carry 3 times more 338 ammo for the same amount of weight.
The 250 gr APs at 200 yards will penetrate 1 layer of 3/8 AT500 steel plate, the 700 gr APs from the 50 will blow through 2 of these plates with ease.
Personally I have found about 40 rnds of 50 a day is about all I can take, and still maintain accuracy but can easily shoot twice that from the Lapua.
This is strictly based on concussion abuse from the brake affecting the shooter, not recoil as I find them about the same in that dept.

 

[2bad4u2]

I in fact shot the deer being mentioned, and still have said tip, along with many more that we have recovered when 750 gr Amaxs hit the dirt backstop at my range.
In the 10 years I have been shooting many thousands 750 gr Amaxs at everything from animals to steel targets I have never had a fire started. I am not saying it is not possible, but this is certainly a new 1 on me.
I will try to post a photo os some of the recovered tips.

As for 338 Lapua versus 50, I have several of both. The 338s are far more portable, shooting the 300 gr SMKs out of my 338LAI I have a flatter trajectory out to 1500 yards than the 50s, I have not spent much time with the non Ackley improved chambering, so can't comment much on trajectory with 250 gr bullets, a ballistics program will quickly answer that question.
A person can carry 3 times more 338 ammo for the same amount of weight.
The 250 gr APs at 200 yards will penetrate 1 layer of 3/8 AT500 steel plate, the 700 gr APs from the 50 will blow through 2 of these plates with ease.
Personally I have found about 40 rnds of 50 a day is about all I can take, and still maintain accuracy but can easily shoot twice that from the Lapua.
This is strictly based on concussion abuse from the brake affecting the shooter, not recoil as I find them about the same in that dept.

Why not get the appropriate provisions added to your business license so that you can sell prohibited devices/firearms to qualified end users (assuming you don't already have it, which I imagine you do). Shouldn't add to the cost of your license and you can buy a .50 supressor for your own use through the shop. That way you could use it on any large bore rifle you own. Except for hunting, of course.

Volia!

 

[Glock-a-maniac]

Brilliant idea. Why didn't I think of that... I'll wait for Rick's reply.

 

[Ganderite]

Quote "Personally I have found about 40 rounds of 50 a day is about all I can take, and still maintain accuracy but can easily shoot twice that from the Lapua.

This is strictly based on concussion abuse from the brake affecting the shooter, not recoil as I find them about the same in that dept."

"Concussion abuse." Good phrase. For those who have not had the pleasure of shooting a 50, think in terms of the guy beside you having grenade practice while you are trying to shoot. For the shooter, it is as if Mohammad Ali boxed your ears for each shot.

The only rifle I have ever shot that was less fun was the shot I fired out of my 375 double rifle when it doubled. My skull sheared the scope off the rifle.

As for the grass fires. I don't know how long the original AMax wsa made before it was re-designed. The change had to do with the aluminum nose plug and the size/shape of the cavity that held it. After the change the ammo boxes had a B stamped on them, as I recall, so you could tell they were the new stock. I reported the fires back to Hornady. This was about the same time they were looking at making a change to the nose design. It might have been them who theorized it was vaporizing aluminum that exploded. Maybe they changed the composition of the aluminum alloy, so it would not explode?

I have not been in our 50 cal ammo room for years. I know there is a keg or two of various 50 cal powders still on hand, and a few AMax bullets, but I don't think there are any left of the orginal design. If I could find a box of them, I will send them to you to play with. Maybe a dusk shot would make the explosion more obvious.

 

[2bad4u2]

Brilliant idea. Why didn't I think of that... I'll wait for Rick's reply.

I'm sure you've had one for quite some time. No need to be condescending.

 

[redleg]

.

The 250 gr APs at 200 yards will penetrate 1 layer of 3/8 AT500 steel plate, the 700 gr APs from the 50 will blow through 2 of these plates with ease.
.

You will find RUAG performance to be better than this, and while not the equal of some of the high performance 50AP ammo it does give the 50 a run for its money.

 

[Glock-a-maniac]

You will find RUAG performance to be better than this, and while not the equal of some of the high performance 50AP ammo it does give the 50 a run for its money.

I'm not sure who else makes AP for the 338LM but there's no replacement for displacement. There was a little more to the 3/8" AT500 steel tested but without even going to the API rounds with the 50cal, it was clear, there was no comparison.

 

[Glock-a-maniac]

I'm sure you've had one for quite some time. No need to be condescending.

To be honest, we haven't or else our bbls wouldn't have a straight taper on them. I think even with the proper licenses, there would be issues with going out plink'n with a suppressor. Rick would know more about the legals around that then I do.

 

[2bad4u2]

To be honest, we haven't or else our bbls wouldn't have a straight taper on them. I think even with the proper licenses, there would be issues with going out plink'n with a suppressor. Rick would know more about the legals around that then I do.

There's nothing unethical or illegal about a business using any of the products that it is legally allowed to posess or has for sale. If you had full autos at a range that wasn't approved that would be one thing. Using legally held prohibited devices shouldn't be an issue providing there isn't any provincial regulations limiting your ability to do so. As far as I can recall, there's no specific federal regulations to the contrary.

Just make sure the firearms being suppressed are registered in the company's business inventory. Using a supressor on non-company registered firearms would naturally draw more attention than you're looking for even if there's nothing illegal about it. Play it smart and there'd be no issues.

Hell, you guys are doing so much testing and development in the manufacture of your own firearms, I would think one should be allowed to do this freely on the basis of occupational health and safety issues.

 

[Glock-a-maniac]

I hope Rick is reading this. All we have to do now is get ahead of our workload and then we CAN actually work on some research and developement...
Sounds like a plan to me.

By the way, who's the chick with the rack in your picture??

 

[2bad4u2]

Thought you might like the idea... While a .50 BMG can would not be optimal for all cartridges, it would sure as heck be better than nothing, and should be somwhat effective in reducing the blast generated from other high volume cases you'd typically use in the course of business.