Accuracy in a BP rifle

[tommyg]

original post

To tommy, I'm sorry, I don't own a competitive smoothbore, or a competitive rifled musket for that matter, but I was talking real world numbers, we don't have to "duel", NMLRA is the real testing ground and I highly doubt I will get any bragging rights there. Do you think you would? If you missed the post two down from the huge one you quoted, read it through, the world records are the same, and they don't shoot for group, they shoot for score.

As to tapered smoothbores, and smokepole, I was told the standard range is 50 meters for those two competitions, but they do have other shoots from 25-130 commonly, and the best rifled muskets v.s. the best smoothbores don't show any advantage until at least 75 yards, and there was a smoothbore shoot tagging 2 1/2 foot targets out at 345 yards IIRC.

I was quoted a taper .003 from stem to stern so I doubt you'd notice it, they said that the bore is simply bored from breech to muzzle and then the wear of the boring tool compensated...

I was also told that the single greatest reason that a modern smoothbore "rifle" doesn't measure up to a modern rifled rifle accuracy standards is that rifled rifle barrels are bored, and taken seriously. When you buy an affordable smoothbore for re-enactment, or to shoot, you just get DOM (drawn over mandrel) tubing that has been gauged for size, and you have to find a custom maker to get a proper bored barrel. The DOM is supposed to be totally safe and strong enough, but not precise, and certainly not target grade.

Secondhand too, is that finding a "proper" load for a smoothbore is much harder than a proper load for a rifled musket.

I was told that if I ever did want a very accurate smoothbore musket, Henry Krank and associates of Pudsey, West Yorkshire can have one made for me, but if I have to ask, I probably can't afford it. I checked out their online stuff, and that's probably true.

bobby, bobby, bobby
you forgot the original post ( that we have now hijacked....sorry) was about accuracy in a production type muzzle loader, not a competition ML, (if someone is that serious about competition then they have put in the time, and shooting required to be the best they can be with the best equipment they have).
your theory about spherical item not needing stabilization may be true in a frictionless, gravity free, vacuum, but in the real world you need to account for the increased friction due to the ball mass and gravity causing more friction on the lower part of the barrel, not to mention random variable friction of the barrel shot after shot.
lets not forget that the malleability and ductility of the lead alloy presents a some what less than perfect sphere (flattened from the pressure of the exploding powder)exiting the barrel.
the preferred way to deal with these variables is to remove them from affecting precision by imparting a stabilizing spin. Gunsmiths knew this over 500 years ago, but the way the military conducted battles, the increased production time, increased cost etc. prevented the widespread use of rifling
As for the score records being the same that can happen over a wide range of group size, depending the target used, and match rules. That the scores are the same does not automatically mean that the group size is the same.
A pistol shooting buddy of mine regularly shoots dime sized groups, but off centre, the best i can manage is centered quarter sized groups, hence my scores are higher. He is more precise according to your theory, and I'm a better shooter, according to score

 

[Bobby Ironsights]

Tommy,

In the real world? NMLRA contests are held in the real world, and whether I can beat you at a shoot, has little to do with my "theory" that a round ball doesn't need a rifled barrel.

A round ball, doesn't need a rifled barrel at reasonable distances, a good smoothbore is extraordinarily accurate. It's not a theory, it's proven by scores on paper, through thousands of shoots at the NMLRA competitions.

These competitions are not held in a gravity free, frictionless, vacuum, etc..etc... They are held in Friendship; Indiana.

P.S. Please stop quoting the entire post you reference, it makes the thread unreasonably large.

P.P.S. I also didn't invent the definitions of the words accurate, and precise.

 

[tommyg]

...
It's not a theory, it's proven by scores on paper, through thousands of shoots at the NMLRA competitions....

that may be true ....only if the targets are the same...even then the group size can vary significantly

For example, at 50m with 50cal. rifle or smoothbore, if the target has a 2" bulleyes (10) ring with a 1" X ring, according to most recognized scoring rules, the group size could be as large as 2.980" OD or as small as 1.981" or about 2 MOA difference. While both groups will give a perfect score for 5 shots, with the required number of x ring hits.

Our differing skills at shooting do not have to be matched against each other I was trying to set up a friendly match.

you could set up the experiment your self, borrow a smoothbore and a rifled ML and shoot for score yourself(at what ever "reasonable" distance you want), I'm sure that you will see how much of a difference there really is.

As an aside I've personally witnessed people firing different smooth bores(brown bess and copies) 75 cal ball,75 gr of ffg. you can see the projectile in flight. big corkscrew flight. the ball never leaves the barrel the same twice.

tg

 

[nessy357]

What Tommyg just said X2.
The targets for smoothbore and rifle are usually different.
Cheers nessy.

 

[Murf]

I have a T/C .56 cal smouthbore with regular sights. It does very well at 25 yards but the groups increase rapidly with increased range. 50 yards is about the limit for reasonable shooting.
I believe the spin is important to accuracy or precision . Try rolling a bowling ball without applying any spin. It will pick up a spin of its own but no one can predetermine which direction the rotation will be. Same with curling and throwing a dead handle rock. Part way down the ice it will begin to spin and evntually the path will diverge from the original path but no one can tell ahead of time which direction it will go .

 

[DEZ]

Well here goes my 2 cents think of the toy we had as children the Gyroscope spin definitely equals stability . Rifling was invented because people noticed that there smooth bores that were finished cruder tooling spirals left from the bits were more accurate than the ones with highly polished bores . #2 lead balls are not perfectly round and the spin imparts stability and more important consistency to there flight path . when shot from a smooth bore they could start to spin left or right or any # of ways because they will always pic up a spin of there own and this effects the consistency . Because the air they travel in will effect there course depending on how they spin .

 

[goldidig]

I just started shooting BP a month ago and have a flintlock Hawken in .45 that I have shot at least 35 to 40 times in a row without cleaning at all between shots. I use .17 thick cotton patched round ball and use Bore Butter on my handcut patches. I couldn't believe how clean it was when I cleaned it after shooting that many times. I never noticed any change in accuracy either. I just took my (new to me) scoped .50 inline Traditions to the range today and fired 30, 235 grain .45 cal. cast lead bullets in sabots over 80 grains of Triple 7 and was surprised at the good accuracy from start to finish. The groups averaged between 2 and 3 inches at 100 yards with several groups even smaller at well under 2 inches. I never noticed any change at all in accuracy with that rifle either. I guess I really can't offer any advice being a novice BP shooter, other than to say I haven't noticed any problem personally regarding losing accuracy. Best of luck.
Al