Major POI offset with a savage, need help

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pimbeault

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Hi all, I have been lurking on this forum for quite some time and have learned a heck of alot. Now I need to ask for help.

My dad has a Savage 12 BVSS in 22-250 that has me totally baffled.

I helped him purchase it off the EE and we both are very happy with the condition of it. I do all the gun work and reloading for the both of us so I have been busy over the past couple of week getting it setup. So far it's a standard 12 BVSS center feed 22-250 with a new EGW 20 moa base (bedded), Burris 1" Extreme Tactical rings and Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20x50. I have finished loading test loads which consists of progressivly increasing load weights pushing 55 gr Nosler Ballistic tips in new rem brass. I also loaded 10 midrange rounds for ballpark sighting it in.

Today we finally went to the range and were looking only to sight it in and shoot off the remaining rounds recording velocities and looking for pressure signs ( usual load development stuff ) Here's where it got wierd.

I put up 2 full size target up at 100 yds. I then rough boresighted the scope by looking down the bore and centering the scope. After a couple shots and nothing on paper, we moved up to the 50 yrd line. Aiming at the left target the bullet hit the RIGHT! target center about 6" low. (I thought he aimed at the wrong target) Next shot hit the same spot (WOW now that's pretty far off)
So we move back to 100 yds. I figure out the MOA conversion for distance and move the scope accordingly.......I run out of windage adjustment.

I fired a couple rounds and hit dead center vertically but exactly 7" right. Not good. I pulled the turret to make sure it wasn't bottoming out. I fired a few more and they all grouped under a half inch in the same spot (not too bad accuracy for a guestimate load ) too bad I can't zero.

Now here's the real scarry part. I just assumed the base screw holes are out of allignment with the bore ( I have owned several savages..Love them... but they all tend to have been out a little bit,, no biggie). What I noticed though was the scope was indeed out of allignment but to the right not the left where I though it should have been. I pulled the bolt, centered the scope on the target and had a peek down the bore. It was pointing about a foot and half to the left of the target. (NOW WHAT!) This has me baffled.

We discussed this for quite a long while (arguing actually) He figures it's just the scope being way too far out of allignment. I say yes it is out of allignment but not in the direction the POI indicates.

Not sure if I have made myself clear enough (I still have a headache thinking about this). With the barrel boresighted directly on target and the scope centered with it's adjustments the scope is pointing to the right of the target (not exacly sure of distance, didn't measure guess around 3 moa) without adjusting anything the bullet is impacting about a foot and half to the right. With the scopes windage adjusted to full right (to bring POI left)the bullet still hits 7 moa to the right. With the scope adjust the same and then looking down the barrel the bore is pointed a foot and ahalf to the left of the target.

Tonight I rechecked everything on it. The rings and base were torqued properly. I checked the crown for burrs, none. Checked the bolt face for visual defects, looks great. The only thing I can think of is that when I went to first disassemble it, the actions screws were very tight. When I reassembled it I torqued the screws to 65 in.lbs. I think there possibly may be a bedding problem and the action is being stressed pretty bad. But that is just a guess and have no clue if that could possibly affect the POI that much, or still have the grouping accuracy so good at the same time.

Tomorrow I'm planning to take it out again and adjust the action screw torque. If that doesn't fix it I'll switch stock with my 10fp Mcmillan, which shoots like a lazer. Beyond that I'm stumped.

Please any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm kinda stuck right now.

Paul
 
My suggestion is take the rings off and turn them 180deg and reassemble. They might be machined a bit off center. Maybe have one with the locking bolt on one side and the other ring on the other. If that works, sure sign the rings are wonky. You might want to lap the rings too as they will mark up your scope.

Best solution is get a set of Burris rings with inserts and shim the scope true with the bore.

It is very odd that the scope and bore are 'looking' at vastly different directions. However, very common for them to be a bit off. Why we have adj on our scopes. No matter, there is a simple solution.

You have not bent the action sideways because the action can only go down, not left or right. The pillars will not allow that to happen. Of course, bedding that action is a wonderful idea as the inletting is way to generous.

Do not go heman on the action screws. Resolves nothing and may damage the action.

The issue lies with the rings and how it holds the scope. You are using a one piece base that should be straight ie not bent like a banana so at worse, it is not pointing true to the bore.

If bullet is landing right, the scope is looking left of the boreline. You need to move the rear of the scope left and the front right to resolve this issue.

Jerry
 
The factory recoil lugs are punched out from a sheet and are never perfectly flat. The face of the action is not machined accurately as a precision rifle should be and can be up to .003" off square, same with the barrel nut. The floating bolt head design compensates for this extrememly well and proof is that Savage is widely known to be an accurate rifle.

Your scope is pointing straight along the action but the barrel is off to the side. The easiest and fastest solution would be to use Burris rings with inserts, which btw are a good ring system and hold very well. Another reason to use these rings is because all factory actions are banana shaped from heat treating. Installing a base onto the action won't straighten the action, it bends the base to match. We end up with rings that need to be lapped. Using the Burris rings with inserts allows the average Joe to center his scope with no scratches or bending.
 
Thanks for the replys

I understand your thoughts that the scope just needs to be offset to correct for the windage error. I do have a set up burris posi align rings that I can put on. The thing that still has me confused is the fact that when the rifle was shot to hit as close to the center of the target as possible and I then looked down the bore, the target wasn't even close to being in line. completely off to the left of the paper. I just haven't ever seen that before. The scope is already off line from the bore. Rear of scope to the left, front to the right. Which I think should be moving the POI far to the left of the target. But in fact it's hitting far to the right. My thinking that to use the Burris offsets to center the scope to the POI, the scope will end up WAY off center, drastically pointing out to the right. I sure hope I have just confused myself and it corrects opposite of what I think.

I'm not going to get too excited yet. I loaded a bunch of more rounds last night and will be heading back out to the range soon to try a bunch of stuff. Including changing the rings to see what works. Again, thanks a bunch for the replys.

Paul
 
The first thing to check is stock pressure on the barrel pushing it to one side. I have had to correct this on several rifles over the years. I freefloat all barrels so I can run a piece of cigarete paper between barrel & stock from end of stock all the way to the recoil lug.
 
I had a similar problem a few years back with a win m-70 I had a two piece base. the rear base was put on backwards, it fit nicley but the scope wouldn't line up, by rotating the base 180 degrees everything came together. Hope this helps.
 
"...scopes windage adjusted to full right (to bring POI left)..." Rear iron sights work that way, but it doesn't work that way with scopes. You move the reticle in the direction you want the group to go. Re-bore sight, make sure the screws are all tight and try it again.
 
sunray said:
"...scopes windage adjusted to full right (to bring POI left)..." Rear iron sights work that way, but it doesn't work that way with scopes. You move the reticle in the direction you want the group to go. Re-bore sight, make sure the screws are all tight and try it again.
Click to expand...

Iron sights do not work that way. You move the rear sight in the direction you want the group to go!

Scopes, if the reticule is in the second focal plane, also work that way. I am not sure which system the Conquest uses. Older Zeiss and also Kahles scopes are all in the first focal plane. My Unertl Condor 6X is a first focal plane scope, as well.



Ted
 
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First of all, do ALL of this at 25 or 50 yds, THEN move to one hundred.

So the drop will be off....big deal. It'll be going in the right direction.

Incidently, the scope adjustment moves the Point of Impact to coincide with where the reticle was aimed so....

Bore sight at 25yds.....THEN adjust the reticle over the target center with the turrets....THEN shoot, THEN move the POI. It'll be very close.

Do NOT do any conversion between ranges. Any gun hitting dead center at 25 or 50 will be centered at 100, but a little low...........STILL IN A 4MOA circle.

Saves ammo, and head aches. Turning a scope one minute LEFT moves the POINT OF IMPACT one minute LEFT. I don't understand why you went right to go left.

PS...is your elevation turret on the RIGHT and the windage turret on the TOP when looking from behind the rifle? :) I did that once.....
 
"...Iron sights do not work that way..." Right. Silly me. Either way you don't move a scope right to move the group left.
 
Thanks everyone for your input, it means alot.

I spent the better part of the day yesterday trying and checking everything under the sun. I used multiple, proven scopes and rings with the same result.

I didn't mean to mislead anyone with the scope adjustment theories, I probably worded it wrong. Sorry about the confusion. I have indeed done all the sighting workup from 25 yds out to 100. Just for your info at 25 yds with the gun borsighted on target the impact point was about 7" right. ouch. Also I was surprised to see that action screw torque from 20inlbs up to 65 didn't change the POI of the groups more than an inch, kinda happy about that.

In the end though, I went with Burris Posi Align rings and the original Zeiss scope. I had to use a 20moa offset to the right on the front ring and a 5moa offset to the left on the rear ring. This allowed the scope to be perfectly centered with the windage adjustment. It's hard to tell at first glance but the scope is WAY off center from the direction of the barrel, as I suspected it would.

It was decided that since the gun shot sub .5" groups all day with unproven loads, we were going to leave it as is for now. Shoot the hell out of it like there's no tomorrow until either strange things start happening or the barrel burns out. After which I'll order a new recoil lug and a 9" twist barrel from Jerry, which was the original plan anyhow.

Thanks again to everyone who replied, I appreciate the help

Paul
 
Sometimes barrels just do wierd things. I had a Ruger 77 in my shop one time that pointed the barrel at least a foot off at 100 meters to hit the target.
So you are not the only one.:confused:
 
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