How about a 16 gauge Howdah double pistol!
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/antique_guns/purdey_howdah/howdah.html
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/antique_guns/purdey_howdah/howdah.html
45acp verus 9mm
- Thread starter Bookworm
- Start date
It's an easy formula. When you are trying to stop or kill something, big holes are better then small holes. - dan
Speakin' of holes, I read in a book by Mac Livermoore about a phenomena by which small bullets going at high speeds are followed by a sort of "shockwave" that can poke a hole in the target much larger than the bullet diameter.
Is there anything to this? I'm surprised I never read about this in all these recurring 9 vs .45 debates...
Is there anything to this? I'm surprised I never read about this in all these recurring 9 vs .45 debates...
CanuckShooter
CGN frequent flyer
Here's another really good article on stopping power in case anyone missed it last time I posed it:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm#The Myth of Energy Transfer
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm#The Myth of Energy Transfer
Cerdan thats called Hydrostatic shock, Check it out on Wiki.
Its what causes Exit wounds to be exponentially larger than entry wounds.
In this debate, its effects are considered, its just bigger bullets cause ripple effects in flesh.
granted it's a moot point, but in other countries , since the 45/1911 frame was redesigned to accomodate the double stack mag, the more rounds in the 9 is no longer valid- that would be your para-ordinance- and there's a couple like the cobray and the ingram that were double stack to begin with- there's more choices now-basically what it amounts to is that you can build any mag to fit any gun witha specified number of rounds- usa mag used to market a single stack 30 rounder in 45- granted it was long as heck, and troublesome, but point is it still held 30 rounds of 45 acp- guns and ammo had one for testing , and i know that the 12 round version was issued to some units as a primary mag in nam- 12 in the gun, backed up by 2 -7s- reason being that if you had to go to your secondary, it was better to have a bigger mag to shoout your way out till you could get your primary back working
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It is now generally accepted that no pistol bullet can generate hydrostatic shock in living tissue, regardless of what they might do in ballistic gelatin. It takes rifle velocities to create hydrostatic shock.
Although gelatin is made from organic cells, they are completely pulverized during production, and so it behaves very differently from living cells in wound channels. Living cells have a relatively stiff wall around each cell, which absorbs a considerable amount of pressure before bursting under hydrostatic shock. Since ballistic gelatin has no such walls, it deforms much more easily than living material.
Although gelatin is made from organic cells, they are completely pulverized during production, and so it behaves very differently from living cells in wound channels. Living cells have a relatively stiff wall around each cell, which absorbs a considerable amount of pressure before bursting under hydrostatic shock. Since ballistic gelatin has no such walls, it deforms much more easily than living material.
Starscream
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Rules of a gunfight:
1) Bring a gun. Any gun is better then no gun.
2) Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice.
3) Anything worth shooting twice is worth shooting twice well.
4) With the exception of rule one, all rules stated are more guidelines then rules.
1) Bring a gun. Any gun is better then no gun.
2) Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice.
3) Anything worth shooting twice is worth shooting twice well.
4) With the exception of rule one, all rules stated are more guidelines then rules.
Better yet:
THE KEYS TO SURVIVING LETHAL FORCE ENCOUNTERS
1. Cultivate a warrior mindset.
2. Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice.
3. Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system.
4. Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.
Most people who carry a firearm for duty are not great shooters firearms are just one of many tools they employ, 9mm is a suitable cartridge for most people, very good wound ballistics and easy to shoot, and easy to get hits. Shooting is a skill that degrades quickly (How do you shoot after a 6 month break?) Few services have the budget to mandate the training required to become good and stay good with larger calibre offerings. Yes, a .45 on paper has a clear advantage over 9mm, however few people are good enough to employ all of the benefits, especially in Canada where markmanship and firearms skill is not heavilly emphesized in the line of duty.
Dragoon: I think you've nailed it. While I like to debate one versus the other, I think your "take a step back and look at the problem" approach is even more important. The minor advantages and disadvantages of each calibre is minor in relation to your posts advantages.
Well said!
Well said!
In order to simplify your chart, I offer up this helpful diagram:
Bottom line, hits count - shot placement is what matters. Or, as someone recently said, "aim more, shoot less".
I set that as my work desktop background.
Ah, thank you CBMS.
Interesting. I'm glad I asked, 'cause that book I mentioned iss a couple of decades old, I figured the theory might've been disproved, or adjusted, since then.
9mm para is better than .45acp in almost every circumstances, weight is a thing, but velocity and shot placement is final.
Get hit by a 9mm bullet, I bet you won't want to get another time, a bullet in the chest hurt like hell, .22lr or .45acp,
STEP 1: shoot the bad guy, he doesn't want to get hit anymore, if he actually does want to get hit again (running at you) follow step 2.
STEP 2: shoot again.
REPEAT STEP 2 until the threat is down, if not, follow step 3.
STEP 3: drop the empty mag, insert a fresh mag, release the slide. Follow step 1 and 2.
If the threat is always running at you (a bunch of people for example), follow step 4.
STEP 4: shoot every mag you have, if unsuccessful, follow step 5.
STEP 5: Grab the shotgun, fully load it. Follow step 6.
STEP 6: HAVE FUN!
Get hit by a 9mm bullet, I bet you won't want to get another time, a bullet in the chest hurt like hell, .22lr or .45acp,
STEP 1: shoot the bad guy, he doesn't want to get hit anymore, if he actually does want to get hit again (running at you) follow step 2.
STEP 2: shoot again.
REPEAT STEP 2 until the threat is down, if not, follow step 3.
STEP 3: drop the empty mag, insert a fresh mag, release the slide. Follow step 1 and 2.
If the threat is always running at you (a bunch of people for example), follow step 4.
STEP 4: shoot every mag you have, if unsuccessful, follow step 5.
STEP 5: Grab the shotgun, fully load it. Follow step 6.
STEP 6: HAVE FUN!
CanuckShooter
CGN frequent flyer
Well, there you have it folks. We finally have a definitive answer! After all those decades of debate. Case closed I guess!
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Unless!
I don't usually beleive in Handgiun bullet expansion performance, unless your comparing a FMJ to a Hydra-shock situation....all the rest of the stats is circumstantial detail...for the most part.
Unless! You are using a fragmentation bullet, like .45 ACP Glasers, Hydra-shock, then it 's an ultimate 30% more stopping power...in the ideal average COM shot....
If you use a .22lr Quick-shok 3 way fragmentation, it would not penetrate more than a high powerd BB Rifle...say 6" in ballistic gelatin, wereas all the other .22 calbers will do some 12"-->14"....etc...
I know a IPSC shooter/gunsmith who shot himself with a .45 Hydra-shock....it went through his thigh and nestled in his ankle at point blank muzzle exit.
I don't usually beleive in Handgiun bullet expansion performance, unless your comparing a FMJ to a Hydra-shock situation....all the rest of the stats is circumstantial detail...for the most part.
Unless! You are using a fragmentation bullet, like .45 ACP Glasers, Hydra-shock, then it 's an ultimate 30% more stopping power...in the ideal average COM shot....
If you use a .22lr Quick-shok 3 way fragmentation, it would not penetrate more than a high powerd BB Rifle...say 6" in ballistic gelatin, wereas all the other .22 calbers will do some 12"-->14"....etc...
I know a IPSC shooter/gunsmith who shot himself with a .45 Hydra-shock....it went through his thigh and nestled in his ankle at point blank muzzle exit.
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why talk about stopping power? you got to hit the (i assume) person first. it isn't like shooting at a range. your adrenline will be pumping. meaning high heart rate, slight shaking of the hand, ect. plus i can't talk for the intended person being shot at, but if it were me i would be shooting back. so you got to factor that in. .45 or 9mm will do. you don't or shouldn't be shooting at a head, more like the center of mass. again you will be nervous, it will be happening real fast. if your using a pistol i assume you either about to be over run or in a gangster movie. pistols, knives and fists/feet are last resorts. i,ve used both .45 (issued m1911a1) and 9mm (issued inglis). i think they are both outstanding. if your on the other end of the law i guess you would be in some kind of night club? .22 will do. i bounced for awhile i'll tell ya most who carried, carried small jobs. i think the intent was to scare and not use. if used, to hurt not kill. if that ain't strange? i think any firearm is good as long as it is maintained and you train, train and train. "rant off"
