Winchester brass = crap?

Cerdan

Cerdan

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I'm gonna stop using Winchester .357 brass. For some reason, they tend to neatly split a bit over a centimetre below the case mouth, sometimes only after a couple of loads:

rupture.jpg


I should add this only happens with Winchesters! When they're about to split, they usually buckle on the press as I'm trying to crimp. At the same spot. I thought Winchester made a quality product?

Case splitting at the mouth I can understand, that's where all the bellin' and the crimpin' goes on, but why there? The only explanation I can think of is that they purposefully manufacture a weakness in that spot so that, when the case separates, at least it doesn't do so at the head.

Am I doing something wrong? Is Winchester? I should add that I do inspect the inside of the cases with a bent and sharpened paperclip. Sometimes there are signs of impending separation, others times there aren't. I've yet to notice any adverse effect of the case separating at that particular location (I don't notice anything while shooting, only when I eject the cases).

Any info appreciated, thanks.
 
I cannot say for Win pistol brass, but their .308 brass works AMAZINGLY for me. Good quality and consistency.

I must say its much better then the Rem brass i've been forced to switch to.
 
IMHO, Winchester is the best available domestic brass for Rifle chamberings. Lapua and Nosler are better, but also pricier. As far as Pistol brass goes, I load 357 & 44 Mag, and have had no issues with Winchester brass in them. Regards, Eagleye
 
Can't say about pistol brass either, but Eagleye I agree with completely. Use Win brass a lot, and have nothing but good luck. Case separation in any gun if premature should be looked at carefully - there's always a good reason for it. I've heard the same complaints about Win .300 mag brass only to learn that they were being full length resized every time, loaded to the teeth and then separating after 3 or 4 firings. Small wonder.
 
Eagleye said:
Winchester is the best available domestic brass for Rifle chamberings.
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Which is why I'm asking. I know Winchester enjoys a good reputation, so what's the cause of this?

sbtennex said:
Case separation in any gun if premature should be looked at carefully - there's always a good reason for it.
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What do you suggest I do? Here are the quick facts.

1. This not only doesn't happen with other types of brass, it happens CONSISTENTLY with Winchester brass, always at the same spot. (if it happened with all brands, I would've immediately thought of a problem with the chamber specs)
2. I don't load particularly hot loads, high mid-range at most.
 
Has it only been with one lot of brass or with cases from different production runs? How many times has it been loaded?

I've had pretty good luck with Win. brass but do find it a little thinner and more brittle than some of the other brands. Might be worth annealling but I've never bothered.
 
They're from the same lot, it had crossed my mind that it could be a problem with that specific lot...

Most of them have split (or buckled on the press) at the second or third load.
 
I use a lot of winchester brass for .357 it's by far the longest lasting brass out of Rem, fed, pmc etc.

You must have got a bad lot for it to split that bad.

On a side note I got some brand new Remington nickel plated brass in 45 Colt, Using starting loads I was geting splits on first firing! 8 out of 100 were split so bad I had to toss them into my recycle bin.
 
Knurling

Some straight-walled brass has some kind of single point light "knurling" on it, about 2/3 from the base. is your brass so marked?
Maybe a too deeply imprinted knurling acting as a dotted tear line on some lots?
PP.
 
PerversPépère has a point there. I have some brass (38 Special IIRC) that has that line and don't know what it is for as it seems so far down as to not touch the longest bullets. Does your brass have that line?

Have you tried that brass in other guns? Have you tried it with light loads?

I would be inclined to call Winchester up especially if you still have the lot number. Maybe they know about it but can't send you replacement brass till you call.


Fudd
 
Cerdan said:
Which is why I'm asking. I know Winchester enjoys a good reputation, so what's the cause of this?



What do you suggest I do? Here are the quick facts.

1. This not only doesn't happen with other types of brass, it happens CONSISTENTLY with Winchester brass, always at the same spot. (if it happened with all brands, I would've immediately thought of a problem with the chamber specs)
2. I don't load particularly hot loads, high mid-range at most.
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Stop using it. I'm serious. If it's that batch of that particular brand your gun has told you something important - that particular batch and that gun are a bad mix. Throw the brass away, or squish them and sell for scrap.
 
PerversPépère said:
Some straight-walled brass has some kind of single point light "knurling" on it, about 2/3 from the base. is your brass so marked?
Maybe a too deeply imprinted knurling acting as a dotted tear line on some lots?
PP.
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ElmerFudd said:
PerversPépère has a point there. I have some brass (38 Special IIRC) that has that line and don't know what it is for as it seems so far down as to not touch the longest bullets. Does your brass have that line?

Have you tried that brass in other guns? Have you tried it with light loads?
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I know what you mean, I've seen those lines before. I too have always wondered what the point of them is, I thought they might serve as an additional crimp, but like you said Elmer, most don't even touch the bullets... In any case, the brass in question doesn't bear those marks, so that's not it.

I haven't tried the brass in other guns as it's my only gun chambered in .357Mag. Haven't tried light loads, no, but they weren't hot by any means.
sbtennex said:
Stop using it. I'm serious. If it's that batch of that particular brand your gun has told you something important - that particular batch and that gun are a bad mix. Throw the brass away, or squish them and sell for scrap.
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You're right, of course, which brings me to a final question, which is a bit unnerving to ask. I must've split more than a dozen cases that way, either during firing or after, under the force of the ejector pulling on the rim. I never once noticed anything out of the ordinary until the cases were out.

Was I just incredibly lucky all these times, or are splits at that level completely harmless? I know splits at the head can be catastrophic, which is why I theorized that they might have manufactured a weakness higher up in the case to avoid any kind of catastrophic case head separation, but I know that's a stretch...

So yeah, what's the worse than can happen from such case failures?
 
Cerdan said:
I haven't tried the brass in other guns as it's my only gun chambered in .357Mag.
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Sounds like a perfect excuse to give to the wife to buy a new gun!! She wants you to be safe, right? :D

Cerdan said:
Haven't tried light loads, no, but they weren't hot by any means.
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What I was driving at was to find out if this would still happen just as much if it was a really light load. ie. a light 130gr. 38 Special powder puff load. Something to just get the bullet out of the brass and down the pipe.

Canuck44 said:
Never had a problem with it in either .39spl or .357mag.
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I was thinking about getting a .39 Special but didn't think the added power was worth the trouble of buying .01 calibre larger bullets. Do you cast your own, Bob? :p

On Monday I would give Winchester a call and ask them if they have had reports with that lot of brass. See if you can send the broken and rest of the good back for them to look at. I would call not e-mail.


Fudd
 
Can't say I've ever had a problem with the pistol brass, but then again I don't count how many times I reload them, I just shoot till they break and then recycle.

The only problem I've had with Winchester was with a large bulk order of 1100 pieces of .204 ruger. About 5 or 6 of every 100 round bag had deformed necks and were unusable. Possibly because of the newness of the cartridge at the time?
 
I won't use Winchester brass at all. I tried to use it in my Ruger #1 .22-250 and it was terrible for sticking in the chamber. This was with several different lots. Eventually I shot out that barrel and replaced it. Since I hadn't ruled it out that it might be something specific to the chamber I tried Winchester again and had the same problems. With that same rifle I've had absolutely no problems with Remington and Nosler brass.
 
What are you shooting these in? Do you have only one .357? Is the thickness of the rims less than 1.52mm?

A failure like this can really only be due to excessive headspace, either because your gun is incorrect or the case rims are too thin.

The purpose of a case cannelure is to stop the bullet from being pushed back into the case. If anything, it may be stronger than other points on the case due to the additional cold work in forming it.
 
BattleRife said:
What are you shooting these in? Do you have only one .357? Is the thickness of the rims less than 1.52mm?

A failure like this can really only be due to excessive headspace, either because your gun is incorrect or the case rims are too thin.
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In a 686. Yes, the rims are about 1.3mm thick. I know this type of separation is a sign of excessive headspace in rifles, but I can't imagine why that would happen in a revolver capable of shooting .38s. If I understand the concept, excessive headspace in this case would mean the case is too short for the chamber, causing the brass to stretch more than it should. What about shorter .38spl brass?

BattleRife said:
The purpose of a case cannelure is to stop the bullet from being pushed back into the case. If anything, it may be stronger than other points on the case due to the additional cold work in forming it.
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Ah, thank you! I've always been curious about that...
 
Use pretty much nothing but Winchester brass, and have done so over the past 40 years. Everything from 222 to 458 WinMag. The only ntable exception so far is Remington brass for a 35 Whelen, and years ago, a little bit of Norma 44 Mag. brass. Never had a problem when loading any Winchester brass, including 44-40, 45-70 and a few 44 RemMags (a Winchester 92, Ruger Carbine, Marlin 94 and A S&W Model 29).

Gotta believe you ran into a bad batch.

Ran a cross a few case lots of Win. "AA" shotgun shells that were splitting on me a few years back. Gun checked out OK, and other brands OK ... just a bad lot of shells.
 
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